I am reading through the "General Introduction to Year 1." Puberty is mentioned several times as a guide in deciding which level (dialectic or rhetoric) to place your student. In the article, it states that once a child has passed through puberty that the student is in the rhetoric/poet stage. My question is...what is Marcia's definition of having passed through puberty? I read some information online, but the onset of puberty seems to be much better defined.

Thank you,
Polly

Hi Polly,
I think "passed through puberty" is a very loose way to define it as some guys are still growing and physically maturing past their teens, and girls even out around 16.

My observations are that a student is not usually ready for dialectic level until he outwardly shows signs of puberty...regular or cyclical acne on the face being the most obvious (in other words, not just random). Of course, that's not the only criteria, just one that's quickly noticeable. (If my husband and I ONLY followed that when we were young, neither of us would have begun dialectic level until we were 15 or 16.) You'll also notice that a student is ready for dialectic level when he starts arguing more and noticing inconsistencies in others' behavior and choices.

With my three boys, it became very obvious when they were ready for rhetoric stage because they became bored and finished their work significantly quicker than the previous school year or two. They also verbally showed signs that they were analyzing things like biblical passages, movies, books, relationships with others, etc.

There isn't a hard and fast rule of course. However, I think that it becomes pretty obvious over the course of a month or so that it's time to move up a level.

Hope this helps some...

Dana, thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I shouldn't be finding this so hard as I have an adult daughter.

My 11yodd hasn't been hard to figure out. She will definitely be in UG this year.

My soon-to-be 14yodd is the child I'm trying to place. I realize that choosing the level is more about brain maturity, but by comparing the two reading lists I believe she would find the rhetoric level more challenging. For example, I think reading Black Ships Before Troy would be fun but not challenging since we've already read The Iliad and The Odyssey (it was like the blind leading the blind since it was my first time reading them ).

I guess the thing that is throwing me is I see her wanting more challenging reading than dialectic, but I wouldn't say she's quite done with this thing we call puberty. Physically she has been in puberty for quite some time since she's been having her cycle for over 2 1/2 years.

I went ahead and ordered the rhetoric level books for her, and I believe that's where we'll attempt to start. If it's too much for her we can always scale back.

Thank you,
Polly

For what it's worth, my husband and I have talked about it and we're going to do a transition year w/ our 11yo ds - a combo of UG/D. He is not into puberty yet, but he's advanced in his thinking and reasoning and it definitely asking more questions/wanting to debate. If necessary, we'll do the combo UG/D for a couple or three years. Another of the beauties of TOG.

Becky, thank you! That is definitely something to consider.

Polly