To Dana, please correct me if this is way off!

It seems like there are many concerns about not being able to resell the DE product. I hope to offer a voice of reason. As Dana stated earlier, there are rules against reselling copies. Just like you are warned against selling copies of videos and DVD's, it is against the law to sell COPIES of the product. However, if you do not keep a copy on your hard drive or copy it onto other discs first, you should be able to sell your DE. You must sell it legally! It is reasonalbe for World Book and any other copyrighted works to be insured by Tapestry, as much as possible, that bootleg copies of their works don't get cirrculated. Of course, none of those enterprises can police every customer's actions, so it is left up to our character to obey the laws. It is very sad that Christian homeschoolers take advantages at every turn. It discredits us all, and moreover, saddens the heart of our Father.

I DO NOT claim this to be for sure, but it makes sense to me that there might be a way to sell your used DE??? Be encouraged and wait, as so much is still a work in progress!

Unfortunately, Greta, digital copies don't work like printed copies. With a book, you own your copy and you can resell it.

But when you buy most digital products, you see a whole lot of fine print - remember all that fine print? It's that fine print that makes it different. That fine print (sometimes, I don't think it's always) says that you do NOT own this, but merely have a license to access it. And you are not permitted to re-sell the original.

I don't know if this is fair, but nonetheless, that's the legal contract that you are entering into when you buy many digital things. Read the fine print yourself and you'll see it.

I know that people have run into this with Rosetta Stone software. RS is diligent about checking eBay and other places to be sure that no one tries to resell their stuff. I've seen complaints online about people who haven't been able to sell their RS for this reason.

Thanks, Beth, for the information. I don't use digital stuff, so I'm not familiar with the fine print that you refer to, but I believe you! I will be looking for the fine print with DE Tapestry, because as a friend of mine said, "I'll take it any way I can get it!" I'm not looking at all of this new stuff as change, but "growth!!" LOL!

Greta

Ok, I understand now the inability to resell my original DE CD when I am done with it, and wish I hadn't jumped the gun and purchased it (was trying to make the introductory price time period). So, what am I to do with it when I am done? I am at RH level with both my kids and there's no need for year 3 after I am done with it. Would it be a violation of the end user licence agreement to donate it to either my homeschool support group's lending library, or to Book Samaritan, the organization that takes donations of curriculum for redistribution free of charge to those in need?

Chris in NJ

Chris,

As an "old timer" I understand where you're coming from, but I think this may be a case of the world changing around us. I think we need to change our outlooks from seeing TOG as a non-consumable to a consumable. For your kids, think of TOG DE as a workbook, like a math worktext of yesteryear, that kids fill in and benefit from but can't be reused outside the family, or resold.

Unlike books, there is little to no waste with DE if you don't resell it or use it in the future. (No sense of throwing a big beautiful pile of paper away, or mourning all the slain trees.) Like the Israelites of old with their fields, where they figured the price in terms of the number of crops they would harvest before the next Year of Jubilee, you are buying the USE of TOG DE. It's a tool that you will use up as you give your children an outstanding education and Christian worldview, not a possession that you'll hold onto or give away. Or another metaphor: you are buying an experience--like a trip, or a restaurant meal for an anniversary, or a vacation--not a concrete thing that you hold in your hand and then resell. We have these categories in our lives; we just haven't put TOG in that category--yet.

Over the years, I've bought plenty of things for my kids that I didn't resell: pencils, markers, clothing (that's too old or stained when we're finished), toys with consumable parts, food, medicines, field trip admissions tickets, consumable workbooks, college classes, etc. All these have contributed to their growth, spiritual and physical development, and health. TOG now has to be put into that category: it's a consumable investment in their brains, my sanity, and our memories together as a family that I am making. These will last them a lifetime, and like all such consumable investments, it's worth it to me.

I myself am not sure why the non-resale EULA is the norm for digital products, but it is so and because we are involved with other authors, we need to abide by this standard. Since this is the case, I've chosen to simply alter the category into which I place TOG: it's now a consumable tool that I use with my children until they have gotten the good of it. Then, I either store it for their children's use, or toss it, as we do other used up items.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the reply Marcia. I take it then that it's a no to donating it. I totally understand the consumable analogy, however, it's still an expensive consumable. Had I known beforehand, it would have greatly influenced my decision. Not that I've had a lot of experience with buying/selling electronic media type curriculum, but I do remember that the Video Text Algebra guy said that his DVD program could be resold because he knows that's what homeschoolers do, and that was the final factor for me to buy that program, the only other digital/electronic curriculum I own. I guess I love TOG so much and was thrilled not to have all that paper to protect that I didn't think to ask that question when I learned of DE. Of course there are other factors to consider with TOG vs. VT, and that is the World Book copyright stuff, but if I purchase a book from a bookstore that uses other copyrighted material in the text, I'm free to resell that book, yes? Like you said, the EULA for digital items is different, and apparently flawed. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be like renting the curriculm from Tapestry. Even better yet would be if we could rent it, return it, and get a partial refund, especially for someone like me who will only use one year plan for one year. You'd have the CD back to rent again. Kind of like a certain percentage if returned within one year, and less as the years go by until after like 4 years it's not returnable anymore because the consumer basically purchased it by that point, ya know? I know, probably not feasible on your end. Just a thought.

Chris in NJ
(who still hasn't told her DH yet {

Good thoughts, Chris. I'm not sure how the ability to donate or not affects the whole discussion, and I guess the first thoughts I had are the same. Though you "only" use TOG for one rotation, you'll use the lion's share of it that way, and since we have to serve a number of families with one product, it is going to be a fact of life that not all uses will be created equal.

Yes, you can resell copyrighted books, but the author understands and assents to that when he sells his work in print fashion. Not so digital authors, apparently (as we are still learning). Remember, the bulk of expense with TOG is not TOG itself but the books you buy to use it. These can still be resold, of course.

HTH

Donation of Digital Edition products is not an option because if you were to give a person a copy of your disc, they would still have to purchase a license to use it on their computer.

From the End User License Agreement:

• 4.1. NO LENDING. You may not rent, lease, or lend the Software. Lampstand Press, Ltd. provides limited versions of the Software for free and offers scholarships to families with demonstrated financial need. Contact Lampstand Press, Ltd. for information on these alternatives.
  

If you know of such a family, please contact customer service at 1-800-705-7487 (M-F 10-4 Eastern).

quote:

Remember, the bulk of expense with TOG is not TOG itself but the books you buy to use it. These can still be resold, of course.

Well, that all depends on the family. We can't afford to buy the books, so we have been using the library for almost all of them.

For me, paying the extra $30 to have a printed version that I can use then resell, or pass on to a friend when I am done with it is a much better fit.

I would probably us the digital version if it were significantly cheaper than the print, but since they are pretty much the same price (or less if I buy used) I will be buying the printed versions myself.

Hmmm....I will admit that I am not in the practice of making $200 consumable purchases for my homeschool....however, is it still true that I would be able to use it with ALL my kids? Will I actually receive a CD of my OWN that I possess or is this all to be done online through the lizard thing?

De'Etta,

You may have a disc if you wish, but that disc will only work on the computer to which the LockLizard license is assigned. You are able to call us and move it from computer to computer over the years as you buy/upgrade computers, or if your original one is lost or stolen, but you can't operate one copy of TOG on two computers. We do however have the ability to give network licenses do that families who buy a single copy of TOG can run it on several in-home machines.

And, not to be nit-picky, but simply to avoid confusion in others when they read this, it's a $170 purchase for a year-plan for a digital curriculum that can be used indefinitely by all members of your family.

Hope this clarifies!

quote:

Originally posted by lcelmer:
Well, that all depends on the family. We can't afford to buy the books, so we have been using the library for almost all of them.

For me, paying the extra $30 to have a printed version that I can use then resell, or pass on to a friend when I am done with it is a much better fit.

I would probably us the digital version if it were significantly cheaper than the print, but since they are pretty much the same price (or less if I buy used) I will be buying the printed versions myself.

True enough about library; many families do buy many of our books, though.

Let me just say these (hopefully clarifying) things, though.
1) You can order a printed copy with our DE/PRINT package. (It's $30 extra per unit, though, not for the entire year-plan.) But, because of both copyright issues and the fact that it will lack the Loom documents (only the units themselves are printed, as with our offset copies; the Loom is accessed digitally still) you should not resell or give it away.

2) DE does cost $170 (full retail, without specials) and printed ones are $225. So, DE is significantly cheaper: it's a $55 difference.

Thanks, Marcia. I'd seen the price as $45 per unit but didn't take into account a price break for ording a complete year plan.

I love the network ability...I've been trying to call the office and ask my other question but didn't get through yesterday and y'all may be closed until Monday....but I'll try. I love your heart for homeschoolers. Thanks for the service you provide.

LOL I'm running into a problem with that "indefinetly" plan of use. I HAVE classic year 3 and 4...but would love to upgrade...but that involves upgrading more than a simple year plan - the books as well.....so maybe instead of researching DE I need to cultivate contentment with the year plans I purchased to use indefinitely. ::snort:: BUT the space saving would be GREAT as we move to Misawa. Thanks again TOG staff for all you do to bless homeschooling families.

De 'Etta,

Our call volume is unusually high because of Year 2 going to print. We're open today: keep trying!

Do I understand this clearly? DE/and Print from de can not be loaned etc.

Thanks.