Since TOG is considered a curriculum with a classical method of teaching, I have a question regarding teaching thinking skills.

I am on a quest lately about Christian Classical education. I have realized that TOG is great, but I am not sure that it will help teach my kids the most important skill: thinking (oh, I know that it is there :"read, think,write", but I don't see how the curriculum can assist in developing thinking process as of yet).

Classical education's highest goal was not to be well read, read many books (even so called Great Books) or learn how to write poetry or essays. The utmost goal of classical Christian education was to learn how to think in order to reach wisdom (philosophy part), the knowledge of the world in reference to God, and that would allow a person to live in harmony with this what is true.

Let me quote few fragments that are challenging me to the point that I am rethinking our homeschooling approach:

quote:

What is most important about education is that it focuses on a process and never on content. The ultimate benefit is the use of a faculty, not the mastery of a body of information. True education teaches human beings to seek truth, goodness and beauty by the use of faith-enlightened reason.

quote:

Students and teachers who are ignorant of the classical liberal arts are unprepared to enter into the interpretation and enjoyment of the classical masters. Sure, they may find enjoyment in them, but it is unlikely to be the enjoyment that the authors intended.

One or two years of Latin will not help :-)

quote:

Classical schools spoke of humanities courses, especially in the Christian tradition, they were not occupied with reading lists but a small number of choice writers: Cicero, Caesar, Livy, Virgil and Horace. Humanities was not a literature courses and anthologies were not welcome.

quote:

Popular "great books" courses are not doing this as they drag students across hundreds of pages of reading--and that in translation. The vision that guides these "great books" programs is not informed by masters of the classical liberal arts, but principles of modern education with its hunger for trivia. These students are "smart", but not skilled.

So I am starting to see that taking Logic course and telling people to implement "Socratic discussion" will not by itself teach a person how to think.
Dialectic (not a stage of development) was the skill of demonstrative reasoning, not only dialectical or contentious reasoning, and that had to be thought in Ancient times and in Christian classical education throughout centuries.

Rhetoric couldn't be understood without Dialectic and it had to be thought also.

Also, I am finding TOG work to be quite "busy", not really seeing the great benefits yet. Reading for my UG/D 11 dd took a lot of time and we were skipping some worldview. Writing is not happening as I expected (using WA). One reason is that she does not how to think well yet:-), so teaching the mechanics without getting the idea of it all seemed useless to me at times ( I was thinking about adding IEW or Classical Writing). Writing is scary to me, since English is not my native language.

My LG/UG ds9 can't spell (probably dyslexic), so writing was not existing for him. Narrations and narrations dictated to me had to suffice. Worksheets - to tell you the truth, I am not sure that these helped much, except kept their time occupied.

On top of that Spelling Power does not work for us (spelling lists formed on wobbly spelling rules it seems to me, sorry!)

How can I effectively teach the art of reason through TOG? Is the "Pageant of Philosophy" in rhetoric stage really teach that? I am not classically educated myself and I am trying to wrap my mind around it all, especially lately.

We are in Y3 U4 now and contemplating if we should continue with Y4, use it as a supplement or quit (because tweaking it would get rid of half of the curriculum.

I am sure that students who went through TOG are well versed, can write well etc, but I need someone to tell me that I should stick with TOG, because it will teach my kids to think. I know the mantra that TOG is not for everyone and that teacher's part is crucial, but if I am investing so much finances, time and energy in smth. I need to have hope that it will generate the expected effects at the end, with God's help.

This is the end of my desperate rumblings. I love TOG, and would like to continue, but I need to make sure that it will get us "there", not by only adding more info to process but by giving us tools to be awakened to the right process of thinking and reasoning.

All of the citations are from CLAA

Thanks.

Hi Iwona,
Wow! I'm impressed with how you are thinking through this process! Here are a few thoughts for you that I pray may help some...

Mostly it seems to me that what you are describing is the desire to see the end product (thinking) when your students are still in the beginning stages (mostly memorizing). Yes, at their ages they are learning mechanics...whether of grammar, or math facts, phonics or spelling rules, or of historical events. And, yes, sometimes it's SO very difficult to feel like you are doing anything but treading water.

However, remember that at the grammar stage, educationally you are nailing pegs into a wall. Every time you review the role of a verb in a sentence, the way fractions work, or even the dates when Thomas Jefferson lived, you are pounding in a peg just a bit further.

When you reach the dialectic stage (it sounds like your 11 year old is nearly there), you will begin connecting those pegs. There still won't be thinking quite like there will be four years in the future, but he'll begin understanding that a verb isn't just an action word...it defines a role that a word plays in a sentence. He will begin to understand that he can double the biscuit recipe, or figure out how many heads of lettuce to buy for a large salad...because of fractions. And, he'll start to realize that Thomas Jefferson not only was instrumental in the writing of the Declaration of Independence, he lived during the time of the French Revolution, and subsequently was able to help American purchase Louisiana from France.

And then of course, as you know, when the student reaches the rhetoric stage, that's when you'll really see THINKING like you want to see it now. It is a very SLOW process, but please don't get discouraged. It is so very rewarding to see your grown children be able to argue effectively for their faith, see through useless rhetoric that they see in the public square, and make decisions to glorify God.

I think that it's helpful to think of education as a "drop-by-drop the bucket is full" approach. So, while the writing mechanics may seem useless, it's SO much easier for the student to have those pegs already pounded in the wall because when it's time to analyze (think) in the rhetoric stage, the student isn't struggling with learning basics.

So, after having graduated three students from homeschool, I'd encourage you to stick with some type of program that encourages these higher thinking and processing skills (and not bounce back and forth...that's where I made my biggest mistakes with my oldest son). My oldest son went through one cycle of TOG, but my youngest went through three times. This method benefited all of them, but I'd certainly say that the youngest reaped the most. I truly stand amazed at how God has used TOG in all of our lives.

No, the Pageant of Philosophy does not all by itself teach the art of reasoning. It IS however, part of the picture. Truly I have felt that it's the blending of history, government, philosophy, literature, art history, and church history that have made us learn to actively think. Writing about it all has made us think more effectively because it is simply part of communicating about what we are thinking. And, typically, you don't get this type of education using a typical textbook ping-pong approach.

I could go on and on because I feel so strongly about how TOG enables families to grow together; sorry if I seem rather verbose. (And of course, I could elaborate more, but I'd probably bore you to death.)

Hope this helps, and I'd love to hear your further thoughts.

Blessings,

I think before writing TOG off, I'd go back and read the discussion for D and R students and think about having them with your child in the future. It is there that real learning to think happens.

In my house, that is where I see vast improvement in my son's ability to take facts and begin to see how they can be molded, shaped and thought about.

We have used a building thinking skills workbook approach, but honestly I think that is more useful in other areas than in this one.

If you're looking for a "thinking skills" curriculum, no TOG won't fit that bill. You may look at Building Thinking Skills as was suggested. But, if you want your child to process what he's learning, make connections between that and life; apply Biblical principles to what he/she is learning, I think you'll find that when you get into the D, and particularly the RH stages, it will fit the bill quite nicely. If you want your child to be able to back up his/her opinions, TOG will help him/her learn that. Your child will connect history, government, period literature, church history/worldview and philosophy and will discuss these with you. I know of no other curriculum on the market that offers that. TruthQuest comes to mind, but connections are made via lecture, not discussion. Discussion is the best way for your child to learn to think because he/she i an active participant. Whereas, in lecture, he/she is a passive participant-just listening. You are the one that will help him/her learn to think via the discussion threads. But, it won't happen yet. An 11 yo is not capable of synthesizing everything and formulating and communicating their thoughts. As Dana said, at that age-most writings on Classical Education will back this up-they are learning things to hang on pegs so that when the time comes that they can think critically, they are not bogged down with learning facts, they're already there in their memory bank.

Grammar stage is perfect for memorizing and parroting info. It's not until the Dialectic stage(which begins in the early teens, generally)that they begin the process of thinking critically about what they read, write, and speak. But, this process isn't fully mature until they hit the Rhetoric years, which is about 15-16 or so.

Be patient, I think you'll find TOG to meet your needs when you get to that stage.

Tammi

Hello!
Just a few thoughts for you in addition to the great posts already here. First - I think it is great that you are thinking about these things and asking questions. You obviously want the very best for your children, as do all of us who spend our energy and resources investing in home-education. One thing to consider is that not everything has to be learned right now, even thinking skills. Another poster mentioned that an 11 yo does not have the analytical ability that he of she will have in a few more years. That is just a fact of brain development. I know that I hit a developmental milestone around 13.5 years and again around 18 years in regard to my math abilities. In addition, I am now 46 (gasp! where did the years go!?) and I think about things much differently than I did when I was 18 or 21 or 30, for that matter. We keep on growing and learning, if we work at it, even after we are done with formal education. Think about where you are - a few years ago, it probably didn't occur to you to even ask these questions.

As you talk with your children about what they read in the newspaper or in literature books or watch on tv or at the movies, be sure to ask them what they think about it and why. Be sure to model outloud the kind of thinking you are doing as you ponder the world around you. Your children to learn to think from watching you think and thinking aloud with you.

Hopefully something in this will be helpful and encouraging to you as you journey with your children through TOG and whatever else you are using as you learn together. And, yes, I really do think TOG is WONDERFUL at helping our children learn to think and become independent learners!
Blessings,
April

Ladies, thank you for your responses. I need to think now