My kids are ds 12, ds 10, dd 8, ds 6, dd 4 and newborn. This is our third year of TOG. I've always found the amount of time to prepare is too much for me. I am learning, but I'm not sure my kids are! This week we are on week 2 of YR3 and I gave my ds most of the AQs to do and told him most of the info was in the STruggling for Sea Power book. Apparently he didn't hear me say that even though I also WROTE it on his schedule. When he was reading the book he said this book and alot of the books (w/ this curriculum) are hard for him to understand. I went over alot of the AQs with him and tried to show him how to read and to be looking for the info he needs. This is very hard for him. He's come along way and he now able to do similar work for his (Apologia) science. I too find that it can be difficult to determine where the info is that is being asked for in the AQs. I have tried to go through his reading assignments to see if the answers are there- sometimes they aren't. I'm really frustrated with TOG D, with my son and with myself. I've read that others, to prepare for the week, just print off some worksheets and read the teachers' notes and bada-bing, bada-bang, they're done. Not me. I have to pull out books for 3 levels, literature worksheets, map aids really ready and often outline (so I understand) the teachers notes with all the dates, etc so I can teach and talk about them and I try to look at the evaluations if I can to help me know the material and to figure out what the dc should know. I don't know if my kids are learning history with TOG.

Hi Sue,
I just wanted to say that we have a bit of the same at our house. My 12 yo son also balks at the AQ...to the point where I consulted a friend who specializes in learning 'issues'. She suggested that perhaps his brain is just not yet ready for the dialectic way of finding info. I guess he's 'young' 7th grader (May bday). Of course, as his mother I also recognize some of his problem as laziness. We spend a good bit of time 'discussing' what he reads on the particular day he reads it (so there's not a chance that he's 'forgotten'). I only have three children, but I'm also pulling out three levels of worksheets, maps, evals each week. It's not easy (no bada-bing here!), sometimes I also wonder if we're leaning what we should...I'll have to admit to teaching to the evals on weeks that are especially crazy. Anyway, sorry I've no words of wisdom. I just wanted to let you know you aren't alone in your struggle. Don't give up, though. Our journey is absolutely worth the fight. Oh, and PopQuiz is very helpful for me (and my children listen to it after the week is over).
Beth
PS Where are you in Germany? We spent 5 years and loved it. Try to make it to Leipzig in the former East, if you're able.

Beth, Your reply was helpful. Thanks. My ds is also a May bday. I don't think that he's not trying. He's always had trouble breaking down big assignments and he's not sure how to look for the info as he reads. So I know I need to work on that with him. I'm just really thinking of switching from TOG so that it's more manageable for me and so that I know they are actually learning something. Now, I know they are learning something, but I think for the amount of reading they do and I do they could be learning more.

PS. We're in Heidelberg!

We struggle with this in our house too. I sometimes feel "stupid" because I can't figure out the answers without the teachers notes(or sometimes with), so how can I expect my kids to? The discussion time is like pulling teeth and my boys (13 & 15 both doing D) often don't have a clue what I'm asking for. Plus it takes SO long to go through all the discussion questions! Yikes! I've thought about just not doing this part but am trying to press on with it, thinking that maybe it just takes time. Lots of time.

As far as them not learning history, I know that they are picking stuff up, but it's not always what the questions are asking them. Several months ago we were watching Jeopardy and my boys both knew an answer to a question that I didn't. I asked them how they knew and they said it was in a book they'd read from Yr 1 TOG. That's when I knew I'd stick with it. I'll stick with it even if we don't do any worksheets, quizzes, maps or anything like that. I know they're getting something out of it.

Thanks Cindy,
Anybody else experience this?
Sue

Hi Ladies,

Let me jump in here with some (hopefully helpful) perspective.

Let's talk about you, first. If you are struggling with the work yourself, it probably means that you are learning a TON about history that you've never learned before. Those for whom this is easier probably have a better working knowledge of the subjects they're trying to teach. What I want to encourage you with is that you are making a valuable investment. If you can persevere in these pursuits, you will reap amazing fruit. Consider the alternative: if you don't know the things to which TOG is introducing you, then how will you teach them to your children--regardless of the curriculum or approach you use? For instance, if you were to change programs to a textbook approach, you would get the normal pre-processed, surface treatment of history that brought you to this pass. And, you'd be perpetuating it. As with anything with which we wrestle, we get stronger through the process. So that's my first word of encouragement: you are getting stronger! Yes, you're sweating and straining, but this is what produces "muscles." Work has its own reward: fruit!

Second, let's talk about your kids. They are in a season of preparation. They are being trained. Training takes effort. They, too, need to develop muscles that are sorely lacking in our TV-driven society. Consider this quotation from Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves To Death:

"What is happening in America is that television is transforming all serious public business into junk... Television disdains exposition, which is serious, sequential, rational, and complex. It offers instead a mode of discourse in which everything is accessible, simplistic, concrete, and above all, entertaining."

John Piper quotes the above in Don't Waste Your Life, and then adds the following observations:

"Since we all live in a world created by television, it is almost impossible to see what has happened to us. The only hope is to read what people were like in previous centuries. Biographies are a great antidote to cultural myopia and chronological snobbery. We have become almost incapable of handling any great truth reverently and deeply. Magnificent things, especially the glory of God, ... rest with a kind of "weightlessness" even on the church" (120-121).

My point in quoting these things is not to point to how much TV our homeschool students watch, but rather to make the point that the same can be said of two different approaches to education. We can choose the pre-packaged, simplistic approach (by which I mean more textbooks than packages of homeschool resources), which IS easier and more straightforward, or one that requires of us "serious, sequential, rational, and complex thinking." If we choose the former, it sure is easier for us and for our kids. But do we really serve them or (more importantly) our Lord? I believe that children thrive on challenge, and more so as they do more of it. I've been privileged to teach not only my own 6 dcs, but co-ops with about 50 children all told over the years. Over and over I've experienced two things: first, the more I challenged them (and did not spare for their crying--which is a normal outcome of sustained effort), the more they grew and, eventually, the more they enjoyed learning. Second, I have experienced even my weakest students returning to thank me repeatedly for pushing them hard. They have said how far they are ahead of peers in colleges, how manageable their course loads are compared to their peers, and how well they feel prepared to climb the intellectual peaks of higher learning as a result of scaling the foothills in their high school years.

What I have that you ladies don't is the sweet taste of fruit in my mouth. I am telling you honestly: persevere. I am largely self taught. I became a Christian in college and, though I had the rigors of good methods of research and writing instilled in me in high school, I had to completely remake my worldview as a homeschooling mother, and unlearn many things. And, the Lord knows, we carry a heavy load already as wives, mothers, and house caretakers. It can seem too much that we need to educate ourselves (and our kids) as well! But, if we're to take up the baton of homeschooling for the good of the next generation to the glory of God, I would suggest that we can expect to face both opposition from the Enemy and weakness in our own selves. The good news is twofold: 1) the amount of effort that you are putting in is limited. When you come again to this era of history, it will not take the same amount of effort on your part to be the teacher you want to be. Your younger kids, too, when they come to this era of history, will have the foundation of this year's efforts and the rhythm of this year's efforts at making TOG work for you under their belts. Second, is that through the work and sweat of perseverance, our kids WILL learn to think well, and this will serve both the Kingdom of God and our kids well for the rest of their lives. Then, they can teach these things to their children. Thus will your investment be generational and eternal (insofar as they are thinking clearly enough to share the gospel in a culture that has all but forgotten God's real identity). So, hang in there, ladies. You are on the right path!

Thanks Marcia,
I was hoping someone with more experience using TOG would reply and how delighted I was to see that you did.

Yes, I AM learning most of this as I go now. I'm sure that you can relate to my situation with dc ages 6 weeks, 4, 6,8,10 and 12 years old. It makes it challenging to find those hours to learn and prepare. Even before I had a newborn it was difficult to find the time. (Are you playing the violin for me (:?)

As far as the TV driven society goes, I think that doesn't apply as much to us as we live in Germany and get AFN (Armed Forces Network) which has no commercials and not alot of programs that my kids watch. But your point is generally valid.

I can relate to the muscle building analogy and to the "serving our Lord" part.

I can't look forward to my dc thanking me when I often have no patience with them or ability to handle 5 kids all needing help with something at the same time ALL the while trying to figure out when I'm going to find time to do the D history lesson, etc. with my kids. Yes, I know as RC Sroul, Jr says, "If you aren't the parent you need to be to hs, you need to work on becoming that parent". I think the dc will be grown if/when that happens!

So, my tentative plan for next school year is to get a program in a box for at least my oldest child and maybe most of the others. I hope to do this for just a year. Hopefully during that time I won't be so stressed about school that they can actually enjoy being with me and I can enjoy "homeschooling" (I don't really think of school in a box as homeschooling, but at least they aren't in the enemy's hands and under his teaching). I plan to also spend more time with my almost 9 yo dd who I think has dyslexia (I'm just confirming this now and starting to work on strategies to teach her). I covet any of you out there to exhort me to change my thinking/rationales. I love hearing other opinions. I really would rather have my kids classically educated than educated from "a box".

Thanks,
Sue

Sue,

You have a lot going on in your family, don't you! No wonder you're discouraged right now, trying to run a full schedule with a newborn.

I absolutely think that you're reasonable to seek out easier answers when you're overwhelmed. I might suggest that you think about other answers than going to "the box."

One possibility is to let go of some PARTS of Tapestry, but leave others. For example, some of your kids could do a lower level than you would ideally have them in. (They should still learn more, in the long run, than they would from textbook studies.) Or you could drop parts of what you're doing: let them answer half of the AQs instead of all of them, or something similar. You could assign the kids to help each other (D helping UG understand his reading, for example - which might in turn help D understand his reading; I've found that helpful sometimes before). Ideally, you might even find someone close to you who can do TOG with you, and do at least some of the D discussions. (I started my co-op by convincing most of my friends to switch to Tapestry! Best thing we've ever done.) There are probably other options that I haven't thought of - maybe others will chime in.

I also had to slow down on some things when I realized one of my children was dyslexic. It was worth it.

I pray that life becomes less discouraging for you, Sue, and that you find the way to accomplish your goals given your situation, or if not, can modify your goals to match the needs of your situation. It can be so hard to know what to do! I pray that God's wisdom will guide you.

Sue,

I agree that if you are not being the parent you need to be using TOG (or any program) than making a priority of your parenting aspect is far more important than any academic considerations. I also wonder if slowing down your Tapestry pace would work... or cutting it down some, as Beth suggested. Whatever you do, it needs to be a faith thing. We can't successfully run FROM things; we need to run to them. If you feel that a "box" curriculum will enable you to fulfill academic necessities AND allow you to be a more godly parent, then I'd say "go for it." It's not a "forever" decision. Perhaps in a few years, TOG will be just the right answer, but isn't now. I'm praying that God leads you to the perfect next step!

Dear Sue et al...

I don't know that what I have to say is NEEDED here, (after all you have Marcia!!) But, I wholeheartedly agree with Beth (I think it was, if not... I'm sorry) Anyway, it may be with a May B-day Dialectic son you would be better served (and HE would be better served) by placing him in UG for most if not all of his work. I find a HUGE pattern in HS families to want to bump thier kids up to the next level prematurely because they think they should. I don't know the reasons (I'm sure that they are as varied as the families who do it) and some of the students are MORE than ready. I'm thinking more about the kids who aren't. A HUGE burden is placed on them and also the parent/teacher. It may be if you only had this one student and could work with him one-on-one all the time he could do the higher level work. But it would seem to be to serve him better to perhaps lighten the load enough so that HE can do more of it on his own and thereby "own" the work and the fruit of his work a little more. (And perhaps all of you enjoy it more in the process.) It would also be cheaper for you because I think you mentioned that you already have one in this level. An added bonus is you could possibly make your son a "tutor" to his younger sibling.

Hope this helps impart grace!
Rebecca

Hi there Sue~

I am so sorry that you are going through such a tough time! Having a newborn and trying to teach everyone is stressful! I have a 12yo ds (with learning difficulties), 10yo dd, 8yo ds (with dyslexia), 6yo dd, 4yo dd, 2yo ds, and 5mo ds. Needless to say I can relate to everything that you said! Life is extremely busy without homeschooling, so adding on this huge responsibility can easily bring a mommy to tears! That being said, I wanted to share with you some of what the Lord has been showing me about how I can manage my load that he has given to me. Lesson # 1 (sorry for this one, but it was critical for me...) for me was to admit that my anxiety and stress was a sin. Ouch did that hurt me! I had a hard time even admitting that it was true (a pride thing for me I guess). Once I realized this and confessed it and placed my every emotion at his feet he began to change me from the inside out. None of the "stuff" had changed, by my response to it began to become different. And when the old emotions began to well up within me I began to repent instead of stew. God has been so faithful to me to show me my need for Him. In this process, the kiddos regained a mom that could face a crisis with peace (most of the time) instead of anger. Thank you Lord! Enough on that. Now this fall, after my sweet baby lovin' was born, I was again in need of His help. Lesson # 2 was realizing that I needed to release as much of the kids day to day education over to them. I can't micro-manage 7 kiddos, it is simply not possible! So I gave my two older kiddos a sheet with all that needed to be done for each day of the week, meet to go over lessons with them on Monday, and then meet again to talk things over with them again on Friday. I also print everyhing that I need for each unit out before we start, so that week to week my lesson planning is simplified. And my latest thing He has shown me (Lesson #3) is that I need to release my kiddos to be in charge of the younger ones to get their own breakfasts and clean-up after themselves. By doing this simple thing, for the last two weeks we have been starting school peacefully at 8am instead of 9am. This simple step has allowed me to give more time to my younger kiddos, nurse the baby when needed, and help the big guys all without that icky rushed feeling.

As for the son who doesn't get every question, and struggles to pick-out the important stuff. Just an idea here, but maybe ask him to come to each discussion with 3-4 questions that he picked out of the reading and thought was important. One thing that may do is get him thinking about even looking for important information. Thought number two is back him up a level, or give him only a couple dialectic books and mostly UG until he can handle more.

I wish I could come over and sit next to you on the couch and we could discuss all the ins-and-outs of running busy households all while holding a tiny baby in arms. I always think it takes me 3-4 months before I am up and functioning after giving birth. Give yourself some time. Stop TOG altogether for a month and relax and enjoy your kiddos and baby. School will be there in February or March and you just might be ready to be too

Shalom peace to you and all your sweet blessings!

Thanks Marcia for your encouragement to persevere!
Thanks Amy for your encouragement to call sin, sin!
This is my 5th year doing TOG. I only have two children but my R level son was diagnosed with cancer in Nov. I have had to majorly change his school schedule while he is doing chemo.

I daily remind myself that the struggle is "wanting to grow vs. wanting relief".
God can change my circumstances or God can give the grace for me to go through it joyfully if I choose to obey Him James 1:2-4
It is a war fought on the turf of my heart...it is not easy... but it is not eternal!

Thanks again for the encouragement,
Lori

quote:

Originally posted by Rebecca:

I find a HUGE pattern in HS families to want to bump thier kids up to the next level prematurely because they think they should. I don't know the reasons (I'm sure that they are as varied as the families who do it) and some of the students are MORE than ready. I'm thinking more about the kids who aren't.

I made this mistake at the beginning of the year with my 11yo daughter. She's a strong reader, but she was in public school until last year, and most of her skills are sadly under-developed. We tried the D level work for Y1U1, and it was miserable. The books weren't too difficult, but the reasoning WAS. We're actually straddling the UG and D levels this unit. I check all the resource books for both levels, and choose the one that seems best for her (some of the UG books are just pathetically easy at her reading level), but only require the UG work (if we do the D lit book, we don't usually do the worksheets) and this has relieved a lot of stress all the way around. Pop Quiz is really useful too. She just came to the realization on her own after reading a UG history book that women really weren't treated very well in most ancient civilizations (she was so angry, she had to finish the reading assignment the next day!), so I have high hopes for moving on to D level work next year, but we'll see how this one pans out. Best of luck, and God bless!

Thank you all. Wow, there aren't usually so many replies.

I may go down to UG with my D. Our discussion time is almost nonexistant and really always has been due to not enough time each week somehow. I do give my 10 and 12 yo schedules for the week and they mostly work independently, but I do need to check math, vocab, grammar, their worksheets, etc and that is even hard to find the time to do. My 8 yo dd is progression slowly in reading so I am looking into visual function defect possibilities or possibly dyslexia.

I really need to call sin sin too. I overreact and yell or speak harshly to the kids- I don't want them learning that from me. That is the worst thing now. I want to act the way I want them to learn to act, but I'm not there. I thought today (and in the past) do I put them in PS so that I can be the happy mom meeting them as they get off the bus?? I don't want them growing up thinking they had a mean mom.

Thanks for listening and responding!
Sue