I'm trying to get a handle on what Poetics and Frameworks will be when finished. Here's what I'm thinking they will be, please let me know if I got it right.

1. When TOG is completely redesigned there will be two digital documents, Poetics and Frameworks.

2. Poetics will cover all the theory needed to study all four years of rhetoric literature.

3. Frameworks will include worldviews throughout the ages to assist as we study literature all four years.

4. Actually, Year 1 literature is not included in these documents right? Is your hope to go back and rework Year 1 literature next year?

5. How will you go about updating these documents for people who don't own all four years of Redesign? People who have year 2 Redesign have the information for that year only, people with year 3 have the Year 2 and Year 3 information. Year 4 Frameworks isn't up yet so I'm guessing Year 4 will follow the previous years and be a more complete document then those that have come before. Or will you not upgrade them since they have what they need for that year plan?

6. Can you please explain to me the difference between Redesign Year 2 1st edition and 2nd edition literature? I'm guessing that you simply consolidated all the documents into the two. Is that they only difference? My Loom cd no longer links me to the documents scheduled in my original edition Year 2 through the index, I have to look for files in their folders and open them that way.

7. I noticed the author index was removed from Year 4 Poetics, are you moving it another document?

I think that's it. Thanks in advance for helping me work all this out.
Karen

Hi Karen! These are all excellent questions. Not all of them have good answers, because Poetics and Frameworks were never part of our original plan for the Redesign---they have grown up by necessity as we found we needed resources that did not already exist, and therefore had to write them. Therefore we have not fully determined what their "final form" will be like, but have instead just done our best to provide families with what you need for each individual year. However, as best I can, here are my current thoughts (all highly subject to God's future leading!):

1. Yes, when TOG is completely redesigned there will be two digital documents, Poetics and Frameworks, at least for Years 2-4. However, even when Poetics and Frameworks are COMPLETELY finished (aside from minor ongoing revisions which we will have always with us), we will still need to release a version of each of them with each year-plan, because we sell by year-plan. So, aside from the question of whether or when to print them, it really doesn't matter much whether they are ever finally condensed into two documents for all four years, because there will always be a copy of them sent out with each year. However, yes, eventually I hope that all four year-plans will reach the stage where they correspond exactly to one version of Poetics and Frameworks, which will be complete and consistent for all four years. But that possibility is a few years out in the future at least, and would be much further out if it weren't for DE, which greatly increases and speeds up our ability to get updates to TOG families.

2. Yes, I prayerfully hope that Poetics will eventually cover all the literary theory needed to study all four years of rhetoric literature.

3. Yes, I also prayerfully hope that Frameworks will eventually provide a history of literary movements and worldviews that have impacted literature throughout all four years, to give a context (or "framework") for each era as we are studying works written in that era.

4. Correct, material for studying Year 1 literature is not fully included in Poetics and Frameworks at present... or rather, Poetics and Frameworks readings have not been integrated into Year 1. It is my hope to eventually revise Year 1 to include them, because I believe they are valuable additions to any year-plan, but that will not necessarily happen next year, and even if it never happens, I think that will be all right. I am largely satisfied with Year 1 as it stands, and the feedback we've had from customers over the last 2+ years has been very positive as well, so a revision is by no means necessary. If we do a revision, I'm pretty sure that people with Year 1 DE will receive it automatically and for free as an update (that's the magic of digital TOG). I don't know if or how we would make such an update available to people who have print, but again, it's an extra, so hopefully that won't be a problem for anybody. The "new and improved" is always desirable, but if the older version ain't broken, there is no particular need to fix it! :-)

5. You are correct in assuming that each succeeding version of Poetics and Frameworks is more complete than the last. As we have done for each year in the past, so we will continue to do this year by developing and releasing Year 4 Poetics and Frameworks incrementally, adding to them the material that is needed for Year 4 literature studies. As before, these documents will be available on the Loom for Year 4 customers to access as they are being updated and developed throughout the year. Actually, because of the work we have put into them for the past two years, this year we are a little ahead of the game: Year 4 Poetics is already completed and available up through the first unit, and Frameworks will not be far behind (God willing). Obviously, people who are studying Years 2 and 3 have access to the finished Poetics and Frameworks documents for those year plans already on their Loom discs, so they don't need any updates and in fact I would not advise them to try to apply Year 4 Poetics or Frameworks backwards to previous years, because each year's iteration includes some small changes and improvements over previous years that might be confusing if one were to try to apply them backwards. My advice is: use the versions of Poetics and Frameworks that are provided for the year plan you are studying.

6. Year 2: the second printing is different in two ways:

A) We did consolidate a number of documents down into two documents (Poetics and Frameworks), and the second printing reflects this change whereas the first one refers to the earlier versions of what became Poetics and Frameworks.

B) As we had the opportunity to receive feedback on Year 2, we were also able to go back and simplify or spread out some of the explanations of literary concepts that had been more challenging in the earlier documents. As a result, some second printing SAP questions and some portions of some class plans are shorter or just plain simpler than they were. However, both printings deal with exactly the same booklist and contain almost all of the same content. We just simplified and updated some of our explanations.

7. The author index has been moved to Frameworks for Year 4 (coming soon!) because I realized that it's a little silly to put the HISTORICAL account of authors' lives in the THEORETICAL document (Poetics) instead of the HISTORICAL document (Frameworks). So that's just a simple and small reorganization. :-)

I hope that all this helps you! Please let me know if you have more questions. I do think, in terms of printing, that the easiest thing to do with Poetics and Frameworks is to treat them as a sort of permanent digital resource (like an encylopedia on a disc) and just let your kids read their assigned selections week-by-week on the computer, from the version provided in the year they are studying. Because the articles are short, that amounts to an average of just a few pages of onscreen reading each week, and two students can even read onscreen together. That's what my 13 students (including two pairs of siblings) did all last year, and I really don't think it was any problem for them not to have a printed copy of Poetics or Frameworks. They just used the documents more or less like Wikipedia or another internet encyclopedia. Anyway, you didn't ask about printing, but I thought I'd put that in for what it's worth. :-)

Christy Somerville

Thank you We prefer print and I'm glad, in a way, that I can print out Poetics and Frameworks after year 4 is complete and be done with it.

Christy,

Thank you for taking the time to explain this so clearly. I had many of the same questions and was glad to have it laid out for me.

A follow-up question for me is concerning the 2 editions of Y2. I have the first printing, of redesign. When we rotate through our cycle back to Y2, some of the families in our co-op will be using the new DE version and others will have the 1st printing. Does Lampstand Press sell an upgrade package or anything to help us all be "on the same page" for teaching Rhetoric level? I remember reading that help was available, but was never clear on how that worked.

Thank you for answering questions. Karen, thanks for asking!!

Blessings,
Eia

Just yesterday I took my Y3 Loom disc to Office Max and had Poetics and Frameworks printed and nicely bound, all for a very reasonable price (with my MaxPerks $, plus a 15% off printing coupon I had, it came to $11 for a 216 pg. book). Now that I've gone and done that, when I read this thread, I thought, oh no, I jumped the gun and should have waited until we're done with Y4.

So, having said and done all of that, am I correct in understanding that Y4 will include much of these docs, plus all the new content for Y4 itself?? We really prefer print, find that reading from the computer is too tempting to sit and do time-wasting things while mom gets busy and distracted with other kids, hence my rationale in getting it printed.

If the answer to my question is yes, there will be new material added to that included in Y2 and Y3 Poetics and Frameworks, and if one simply MUST have it in print, then is the only way to go about it is to just have the whole thing (years 2, 3 and 4) printed in it's entirety again (thereby duplicating what I already have)??

I'm really okay with having taken the plunge to get what I have in print - I think that we will make much more use of it, after glancing over it yesterday, I think I haven't squeezed nearly enough juice out of the thing. There is a wealth of information I want to tap into. So, if I have to spend another $30 or $40 to get all 3 or 4 years at the end of Y4, so be it. I was just hoping to get my confusion cleared up.

Thanks, Laurie

Eia---an upgrade package like that is not currently available. My suggestion for people who are trying to use different printings together is that, since the book assignments are exactly the same from week to week, it should be left up to the teachers to decide whether they want to use 2nd printing SAP's and teacher's notes. In our co-op, each teacher posts weekly assignments on the co-op forum, telling the students what to read and which SAP questions to answer. If you had one of these, it would be easy for the various teachers to pick and choose questions and Loom reading assignments from one version or the other, or provide both for each given week.

There's no question that it is more difficult to co-ordinate a group of families that are using different printings (and even more difficult when some families have Classic and some have Redesign). However, I think it can be done without too much trouble, especially if you have a co-op forum and teachers can make weekly assignments on it.

Hope this helps!
Christy

Laurie,

Yes, I'm afraid it is the case that you will need to print Y4 Poetics and Frameworks again if you want to include the material for studying 20th century literature. :-/ $10 seems very reasonable to me, and I agree that even as much as $40 spread out over four years in order to have each year's version of Poetics and Frameworks on hand is not at all an expensive investment---$10 a year isn't much to pay for a resource that you will use so often, especially if you really prefer print. :-)

As I said in my original answer to Karen, there may come a bright shining day (God willing!) when you really could just have one version of Poetics/Frameworks floating around your home. Two or three years from now, that will be possible for new customers (and those who purchase DE now will, I believe receive that upgrade for free when and if it happens). However, we are nowhere near that yet, so I'm afraid that separate versions (just as you have separate versions of the entire Loom) for each year are necessary at present.

By the way, just to clarify, I hope my earlier comments didn't imply a disapproval of printing Poetics and Frameworks---I simply wanted to assure you ladies that for some families they can be used without being printed. Obviously, however, each family is unique, and I would never want to give you the impression that I think it's "wrong" to print these Loom documents.

Thanks for the good question, and for your graciousness in being willing to print more versions as necessary. I wish it didn't have to be this way, but such is the nature of developing new products over time. I'm just SO GRATEFUL that we haven't had to charge anybody extra for Poetics and Frameworks---considering the enormous amount of additional work that they have been, I'm utterly delighted that we can still offer them to you (at least in digital form) for free!

Christy Somerville

Christy,

With respect to the differing versions of Year 2 literature notes/assignments and co-op classes, I remember a discussion I had this past year with Ally, I think, wherein she indicated that there were some cross references or notations regarding the changes available to co-op instructors who were faced with synthesizing the differing versions.

Based on your response above, I'm wondering if that information is no longer available? I, for one, was counting on it for when our co-op cycles back to year 2.

TIA for your help,

Chris

Thank you Christy for taking the time to answer these questions.

I still am wondering about the Y4 Loom disc - will it only have information specific to that year or will it have everything on it to date?

I'm confused, because there is information from Y2 (Medieval lit., Renaissance lit., etc.), but it was the Y3 disc...? The way I understand it, it looks like you will just be adding to existing information, so that each year there will be more of the Poetics and Frameworks content? (Y4 will also have all of Y2 and Y3). Or am I completely wrong, confused beyond belief?!! I was hoping that if next year's disc holds only Y4 information, I'll just have that printed. It would be a separate book, but not a super big deal.

I love this company and your support is such a huge help to me. Thanks!

Laurie

I forgot to ask a question re. the Y2 loom disc - I never got any other "version", only have one disc, and that won't even open on my computer (we now have a mac, had a pc when we did Y2 - figure that is the problem). If there is another version, is it necessary to have it in order to teach Y2 w/o glitches and problems? I'm loaning my copy of Y2 to a friend, along with the loom cd (which surprise, surprise, opened up on her pc!).

Laurie

Hi CJ,

I have another question on Poetics and Frameworks:

When I see assignments for P or F, I do not see specific page numbers or anything to tell me what exactly to read or reference.

How do I know what to assign? Am I missing something?

Thank you so very much, and thank you to everyone for this thread, it is proving very helpful!

Caryl

Dear Caryl,

The Poetics and Frameworks assignments are listed on the Loom under Literature Helps. There is a link there to a reading assignment chart.

HTH!

Hi ladies! Wow, this has become quite a thread! I ask for your patience and forbearance as I try to work through all your questions---and if I miss somebody, please let me know!

1. Chris: there is a synthesizing chart which shows how to match 1st printing and 2nd printing Loom reading assignments. To the best of my knowledge and for obvious reasons, this chart was included only on the Loom discs for people who, due to an error on our printer's part, had 1st printing Units 1-2, and 2nd printing Units 3-4. I honestly don't know whether that information is available to people who have all 1st printing or all 2nd printing units, but are in a mixed co-op. I would call our head office and ask them about that if I were you, because there may be copyright issues involved in giving the reconciliation chart to people who have all 1st printing or all 2nd printing. On the other hand, it may be feasible. I just don't know. Please feel free to call! I hope this explanation helps a bit. :-)

2. Laurie: You are absolutely correct in thinking that the Y4 Loom disc will have everything up to date for Years 2-4. However, it will also contain slight differences in the wording of some definitions and explanations, because we improve those as we go. Thus, though it will have complete INFORMATION for all three years and though you can certainly print and use it for all three years, some of the definitions in Appendix B of Year 4 Poetics won't always exactly match your student's SAP vocab lists in, say, Y3. Also, because Y4 Poetics/Frameworks are longer/have different title numbers than previous years, they won't match the Loom reading assignments charts for Years 2-3. In the future we hope to reconcile all these slight differences, and everybody who has DE will get those as free upgrades so that eventually DE users can really just have one Poetics/Frameworks for all four years, but at present these discrepancies still exist. They are small and I think you can work around them, but it wouldn't be fair of me not to warn you of their existence. Does that help?

3. Laurie: On your other question about the Y2 Loom disc, that really is a technical question that you will need to call in to the home office. I'm afraid I can't help you with it. :-/

4. Caryl: Susan is absolutely right (thanks, Susan!). Under Literature Helps on the Loom there is a chart called "Rhetoric Loom Reading Assignments" which provides all the references to specific articles for your student to read throughout the year. Because these documents are always getting longer and often being reorganized a bit, we didn't put in page numbers. Instead, your student is directed to the titles of specific articles, which he should able to zip to easily using the search feature. :-)

In closing, I want to thank each of you for your immense kindness to us as we walk through this whole process of developing Poetics/Frameworks and dealing with the "growing pains" of trying to make it available to you as soon as possible, even while it is not yet fully completed. It is only because of your forbearance, your patience, your humility---and not least your encouragement!---that we can give you these early versions, knowing that our heart to give you what you need as soon as we can will not be met by complaints about the glitches that necessarily accompany that decision. I am simply bowled over by the grace you have shown me, in particular, as I work to write Poetics and Frameworks in addition to my duties in writing class plans for Rhetoric Level Literature. Some of you have been with me through every phase, every mistake, every correction, and every adjustment of a process that has been going on now for three and a half years. It brings me to tears to see your kindness to me as I seek to serve you to the best of my severely limited abilities. You ladies are simply my heroes, and there is no one else in the whole world, besides my dear family, whom I would rather give my life to serve! May God richly bless you for your graciousness.

And now, something I've been saving for the end of this post. :-) I've been given permission to let you know that, partly because of this thread and your requests, we are in fact working on a way for all of you who have print only copies to get access to the fully-updated and fully-updatable blessings of DE. I can't give ANY details yet, so please don't ask, but I hope very much that sometime in the near future we will be able to announce a means of getting you the Literature updates for Year 2, the possible future updates for Year 1, and the eventual Universal Version of Poetics and Frameworks, that you desire. Please pray for us as we continue to work and think through the process of making such an upgrade a possibility! We need God's wisdom for every waking moment of our lives.

I love to serve you. Thank you for making it such a joy!

Christy

quote:

And now, something I've been saving for the end of this post. :-) I've been given permission to let you know that, partly because of this thread and your requests, we are in fact working on a way for all of you who have print only copies to get access to the fully-updated and fully-updatable blessings of DE. I can't give ANY details yet, so please don't ask, but I hope very much that sometime in the near future we will be able to announce a means of getting you the Literature updates for Year 2, the possible future updates for Year 1, and the eventual Universal Version of Poetics and Frameworks, that you desire. Please pray for us as we continue to work and think through the process of making such an upgrade a possibility! We need God's wisdom for every waking moment of our lives.


Christy

Wow! This is wonderful news! Thank you!

Christy,

I agree, plans to offer DE updates for customers with printed year plans is great news! I just want to say how much I appreciate the fact that Lampstand Press is willing to take on this extra project for us. Even if it doesn't work out as planned, I am grateful for the effort and commend you again for being so caring and responsive to customer requests. I know we are not an easy group to please Thanks for letting us know how to pray and all that's happening behind the scenes. It helps us be both prayerful and grateful for God's provision.

Blessings,
Eia