I have substituted books in the past and it has seemed easy but I'm trying to substitute The Idiot's Guide to 20th century. I have a DK book on 20th century. my question is how do you know what to let them read out of the substitution? I have looked under the student activity pages for accountablity questions but all I see is Roosevelt. would that be all I need to have her read? I thought that reading would be from the president book. I do see under the student threads to read about other people in the twentieth century so is that what I would have my daughter read?

Also, If I use the alternate book The Century for Young People does that cover everything The Complete Idiot's Guide cover?

Thanks for any help!

I too, would like to substitute "The Idiot's Guide..."
Would the Abeka, Christian Liberty Press or even the Bob Jones used in Classic TOG be able to do this throughout the year?

~deb

I am curious: why are you ladies looking to substitute? This is THE ONE spine text for the year, and is not a high-priced book. Is there something about the book that gives you pause (except its name, which is admittedly regrettable)?

The short answer is: every book is different, so, no, these books won't necessarily cover ALL the topics/questions based on Idiot's Guide. That's just the nature of the beast, imho.

Marcia, Thanks for answering. My daughter is very young (summer birthday) she is only 12 and entering 7th grade. She is ready for dialectic reading but I am concerned about the content in the books. I know that finding books on the 20th century is hard to find without all the "bad stuff" in them. I just don't think she is ready to read some of the content. I was going to have to skip a lot of the reading and she was going to miss out on what seemed like quite a bit. I decided to move her back to UG for the History reading but now I'm not sure if she will be able to do the Accountability Questions or discussions with me. I do think she needs to read about some of the sinful things that happen in the world around her but I would like to let it be a slow progression. I guess I just felt she wasn't ready for some of the subjects in the books. I would really like some advice in this area. Dialectic level is new to me and I'm trying to learn as much as possible. Thanks for your time!

I do a lot of substituting. To Marcia's question of why it is usually because I just like one book over another. For example in year 1 I love MOH, so I am adding that, and I love Guerber, so while Story of the Greeks is scheduled, Story of the Ancients is not so I am adding it. Part of what I love about TOG is the ability to use what books I love and know will work for us.

In this type of situation I would buy the book I want then go in and look at topics and make a schedule of how the two combine. Once you know what pages in The Idiot's Guide to 20th Century cover what weeks of TOG you can go in and further analyze it to make sure you have all your topics covered. If not you can consider adding a TOG book here and there.

The other big factor is when you substitute there are going to be complications with the discussion qustions. You have to be OK with that and ready to modify them or just discuss the question and the answer without having read about it in depth.

If all that sounds like a big harry deal to you then you probably would be happier if you just use the recommended resources. When you go substituting you are not taking the easy road.

Blessings,

Heather

Hey, Amy

Have you looked at Idiot's yet? I don't sense that it's either too difficult or too heavy for the average mature 6th grader. It also is arranged in bite-sized sections--VERY easy to skip sections using sticky notes that you peel off later, imho.

If you still don't want to use it, then you should expect to put in extra time tayloring the questions to whatever book you DO choose. That's just the nature of things: moms generally want the answers to be in our spines, so this means that our questions for D/R are closely related to those books. You CAN find the information elsewhere... but it'll be the same topics. We chose Idiots for its non-sensationalist approach and level of reading. Just curious: did you say you'd given it a through perusal yet?

As for the sinful stuff... we do tone it way down for youngers in Year 4. Again, I don't think of Idiots as dwelling on the icky. It gives pretty basic facts and moves on. It's our InDepth books that get into more of the detailed information; she won't be able to answer some of the questions if she doesn't read them either.

I think the bottom line for you is to hold the questions lightly. Go ahead and look at the UG AND the D selections we've made and pray/ask your husband for his feel on what YOUR daughter can handle. You as parents are the gatekeepers of your children's hearts, and there's no way that one provider is going to be able to hit the sweet spot for all students all the time. I believe that as you come before God and ask your husband for direction -- and also, don't fear, for God IS with you! -- you'll find your path through the difficult time period before you.

Dear Marcia,
Let me start by saying thank you for putting an absolutely wonderful product together that has blessed so many families of which mine is one. Second, you blazed a trail for us as a HS community and we are honored to be standing on your shoulders. You continue to this day to labor, doing our Lord’s work, exercising the obvious gifts he has given you – thanks!

Allow me to lay some groundwork before I get to my reason of pause in using the "The Idiot's Guide.." (btw, I don't mind the name or price) In training our children we are constantly reminded the prince of the power of the air is busily at work to frustrate the believer. To that end, we strive earnestly to not cause our seven sons, our "little ones", to stumble. (Matt 18:6) We take seriously when were told in Rom. 16:19 “For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.” Our desire is for the life characterized by Phil. 4:8, dwelling on whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, excellence, and anything worthy of praise. Proverbs informs us that “The prudent sees the evil and hides himself, but the naive go on, and are punished for it.”

These seemingly lofty goals are commands to us. We are grateful for the example of those in history that are such an encouragement, especially in today’s perverse generation. I’m reminded of Corrie Ten Boom’s, at the age of 10 or 11 wanting to know of a topic beyond her and her fathers wise illustration. ..... “Father, what is sexsin?” He turned to look at me, as he always did when answering a question, but to my surprise he said nothing. At last he stood up, lifted his traveling case from the rack over our heads, and set it on the floor. “Will you carry it off the train, Corrie?” he said. “It's too heavy,” I said. “Yes,” he said. “And it would be a pretty poor father who would ask his little girl to carry such a load. It's the same way, Corrie, with knowledge. Some knowledge is too heavy for children. When you are older and stronger you can bear it. For now you must trust me to carry it for you.” And I was satisfied. More than satisfied – wonderfully at peace. There were answers to this and all my hard questions. For now I was content to leave them in my father's keeping".
(also: http://www.desiringgod.org/Abo...yNewsletter/2008_07/)
Even today, certain Rabbis, obviously of the orthodox bent, strive to keep such deep knowledge of sex and intimacy out of their schools, bucking the trend & fighting the feminists agenda in an effort to keep the children as pure as possible as long as possible. Young Jewish boys were forbidden to read "Song of Songs" till they were older. So often we expose children to so much early because “they gotta know this” without ever asking the question, “what are they going to do with that information?” Is there a chance that information about certain topics could pique a child’s curiosity that may have stayed dormant had they never been exposed to such information in the first place?
We are cautious (knowing this doesn't guarantee) of what images or ideas are placed before our young men. (see J.C. Ryles book "Thoughts for Young Men")

Truth be told, we struggle with children in honesty. We have home-schooled from the start and all of us but are all still growing and have "miles to go before we sleep". Weekly planners that were announced complete were not. Lessons gladly proclaimed as “done” were undone. Even with filters on our computer (since modified), the lure is ever present. Our 14 year old decided to define, on his own, words that stated the reason for the “blocked site.” Lo and behold, he now has knowledge of pornography. All Praise to the Holy Spirit, guilt overtook him, though it was months later before he admitted his transgression and came to us for forgiveness. We are so grateful for the foundation that was laid in his life, the openness we have with him and the work we put into having his heart. But it was just one word after "Blocked because of..." and a curiosity that planted a seed that the enemy can use in his life from now on.
Yes, Greater is the Holy Spirit in him then the one in the world, but we know that many times Satan does gain victory in our lives for seasons.

The struggle is synthesizing all these things: the need to stay pure and strive for holiness as we are told from Scripture; the examples from history that show us it is possible and that were not on the “lunatic fringe” rather maybe just a small minority; and the hearts of our boys that are, like ours, deceitful among all things.

To this end we have “The Idiots Guide to the Twentieth Century.” Which overall is laid out nicely and does give an overview in bite size pieces. While possibly acceptable for a strong, mature Christian; the content in some respects is questionable. Between the weekly Tapestry glances and reading through "The Idiots Guide.." I found the following words, terms or topics that I am in no way ready to discuss with a 12 year old son:
(randomly listed) ...prostitution, drug use, Frued's views on sexuality, charged w/ intense sexuality, war in the bedroom, birth control issues, the word jazz is slang for sexual intercourse, "Al Smith's last Erection" ,
orgies of sex & violence, rape, Out of the Closet, homosexuality, "gay plague", lesbian women, bisexual, gay rights, assisted suicide,the right to die; suicide clinics, drug overdose, marijuana, cloning, In vitro fertilization, Eugenics, AIDS, intravenous drug users, junkie, test tube babies, , "dumb bastard", Bill Clinton; Sexual Liaison, experimented marijuana etc. (I don't know if there's more, I stopped looking)
I have to ask myself if I want to pull the book, bring these up purposefully OR wait till he comes and asks. Frankly I don't want to do any of those! (& what if he doesn't ask? ..kids have ways of finding out things out ) The topics don't need to be deep..just a "Hey, Mom, what are orgies of sex & violence" or "Tell me about junkies" ..... You are right that they do not dwell on the icky things, however, the curiosity of a word or term as we saw with our oldest can defiantly be a stumbling block. I wouldn't want to purposely do that; Pastors bring enough up for these kinds of talks on the ride home from church! It comes to mind again, "...be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.”

In the Unit Intro (though listed under Rhetoric) it states:
"The twentieth century is an era in which sexuality, profanity, and violence are more common than in any other period of literary history. Because of this, we recommend that you diligently check each week’s glances for literature warnings during this year’s studies.
AND
"Literature warnings exist in order to make you aware, in advance, of material in our literary reading assignments that you may wish to keep your student from reading."

I am dismayed that this is a primary/spine resource for the Dialectic Level, just one year older or so than Corrie was on that train, and frustrated because I do "wish to keep my student from reading" this particular book for the reasons mentioned above. I have contemplated use a big very black sharpie or posting stickies... But, there would be a LOT of blacking out that would take a considerable amount of time for this particular book. It's not like a few curse words, a sentence or even an offending paragraph; these terms are peppered throughout "The Idiot's Guide.." It also could quite possibly pique the interest when where there was none previously; especially to post sticky notes everywhere. Again, for a mature Christian child this is a great idea but I'm not so sure my guy wouldn't peak under all of them. Honestly, I can't imagine him reading his text with a sticky that is next to his eyes saying "Hey, don't look under me"! That seems, imho, that it would cause a temptation that I don't want to awaken. For a core book that is used throughout the year, and filled with so many warnings in the "glance ahead" I would have hoped there would have been a back up offered.
I am extremely grateful for the “glances” you’ve afforded us! I very much appreciate that you have given us a heads up which helps moms prepare, think through, look through and pray through so that we would not just hand the ones under our care, a bomb. Have you given any thought to offering an alternate Dialectic core resource as a 20th Century spine for those of us who do not wish to go against conscience? A book only used 1 or 2 weeks can easily be skipped if deemed necessary but it doesn't seem we have an option of skipping this book with out ripping out most of the year's main learning and discussions based around it. I was looking though the A beka, CLP & BJ books. The A Beka book does a very good job on keeping things vague much more than Streams and Way more Bob Jones. So I may just alternate between A Beka, UG Readings, and may just use pieces of the Idiot's guide as a read aloud so he doesn't have free reading through the book.
This is going to be my toughest year with TOG as we are starting our first year with Rhetoric and I'll be watching the warnings in his glances as well.
Please, pray for me if it comes to your mind. I'll be leaning more on Jesus for my teaching this year more than I ever have.
Great things are in store!


In His Love we Stand,
~deborah
5 year TOGers
1R, 1D, 1UG, 1LG, 2 littles, 1 nursling & baby arriving in Spring

PS. Uh, why do these books this year look like yesterday's newspaper, anyway? ...sigh, age has a funny way of sneek'n in on ya! Terrible!

Hi Deborah,
I have read through your letter to Marcia and am eager to see how she replies. I understand your concern for protecting your children and I want to encourage you to stick with your convictions regardless of what others say. You must do what God calls you to do as anything else would be sin for you. That being said, I have a different perspective to consider.
The Bible teaches us that "all scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." (2Tim. 3:16-17) I feel it is my responsibilty to teach my children the whole Bible, not just the good parts. Even though there is more violence and sex in the Bible than most books I would read, I do not skip it or change the words when I read it to my children. In their younger days, the words just kind of flew right by them. Now that they are older they ask questions. As uncomfortable as that is for me, I would rather my children ask and let me teach them the truth than to let them pick it up somewhere else. Even walking through WalMart is not "safe" as they can hear others talking or see advertisements that are considered evil from a Biblical perspective. Since my children have to live in this world, I try to teach them not to be of this world. The violence and sex stories are in the Bible for our training in righteousness so I take advantage of that to show my children their need for a savior. I do not search those things out to teach on them but I do not deliberately avoid them either.
History books are different from the Bible as they are not God's word. I have to decide for myself and my family what God wants my children to know. Do they really need to see the evil in the world in order to understand His-story? Perhaps not or perhaps not now. I pray that God will show you exactly what is right for your family. Whatever that may be, we can be confident in this that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love him and are called according to his purpose.

Well, my library has no "20th century Idiot's" book. I am on the list with world cat, but I am waiting already for 2 weeks. I would like to look at this book before I would purchase it.

Plus it is $25 :-) on a Bookshelf. Amamzon had it for smth like $50, then for few weeks it wasn't available and now, new or old is for $36. Wow.

That's expensive for me.

One important thing to keep in mind with "The Guide" is that it's a primary resource for D students for the entire year. It is very cost effective to purchase one book for the year compared to buying new ones each unit. This is not the only history text for D students, but it is used all year long. I am buying books for both D and R levels. I have been pleased that so many books from Unit 1 were used again in Unit 2.

Just wanted to point this out in case you didn't know it was used for more than Unit 1.

Blessings,
Eia

Dear Deb and other Moms,

Thank you for your poignant message. I was touched with your honesty about struggles with raising kids and your desire to honor God in doing it. Our kids are immersed in a culture where kids are exposed to so many things that they most definitely need us to walk with them through deciphering the maze of ungodly ideas.

We too have struggled with issues with our 14yo son and in wading through the reasons why he said he was curious because of images he saw on the covers of magazines at the grocery store checkstand! The poor guy now waits in the car while I pick up milk! All this being said, we as parents are our children's guardians; not only physically but spiritually. We arm them with information as they are mature enough to handle and when the situation is necessary for them to know.

I have used TOG for 4 years, this being my second with a Rhetoric level student. It blends so well with my multi-aged homeschool. I have so enjoyed the discussion times with my Rhetoric and Dialectic kiddos. Rich!

This year I have been disappointed with the spine choices for both R and D students. I agree wholeheartedly with Deb regarding the Idiot's Guide. We have used it sparingly and did not purchase it. The America in the 1900's and 1910's is one I did purchase and am extremely disappointed. It is an easy read for Rhetoric students (too easy) and appoaches subjects such as the creation of Planned Parenthood with a supportive tone. A second book in this series is scheduled for Unit 2. I will be seaching for other resourses. Also, The Three Whys of the Russian Revolution is a wonderful book. As a history minor, I myself thought it was very well done. It also assumes previous study of 20th century topics especially a basic understanding of the Revolution and some other historians writings of the 1960's. My son did not get much out of the reading since this was his first time studying 20th century.

Previous year plan that have been redesigned have been fabulous. Was year 4 finished too quickly? There are other possiblities for materials. The Pages from History series: A History in documents was great. Lots of primary documents to examine. The American History by Era was another great series. This one used essays to cover periods of time. Very well done. These were both used in year 3. We are going to look for others in these two series as replacements. As for reading assignments dovetailing with discussion questions, it will mean Mommy burning the midnight oil to make things come together.

My family and I have been so blessed to be using TOG with our four children. I want to keep using TOG and I have really appreciated being able to take the resources provided and just run with them. We would appreciate a review of resources and if one of them has some adult-oriented content, please give us a heads up in our teacher's notes so we can best determine how to use the resource. Thank you for listening!

Shelli

I thought I would post again since we have been doing school now for a few months. We have decided not to use the Idiot's Guide. I really feel like my daughter is not ready to hear a lot of the content. I moved her to UG for some of the history. She reads War, Peace, and All That Jazz and then she reads the other history selections for Dialectic. I wanted to start slowly on discussions with her anyway so we only have discussions on Church History which we are both LOVING. I am hoping then when we start year 1 next year we will be able to pick up the discussions for history. I don't feel like I have enough knowledge of how discussions work to make up my own discussions. If my daughter was older I might use the Idiot's book as a spring board for discussions about the world around her but at this time I don't feel she is ready. I'm so glad that others have taken time to write on here. I hope the discussion continues. Thanks so much for the mom's who have shared!