and I'm really disappointed! I LOVE everything about ToG -- it's exactly what I've been doing for years and years, but with ToG I don't have to do any of the research or write any of the questions. So what's the problem, you ask. Well, my first child is a stepford student and this is how we "did" school. God, with His sense of humor, chose to give us the antithesis of a student for our second child and try as I may, I can't get ToG to work for him. Essentially, he will read the work, but to get him to bring forth anything after that is like pulling teeth. I'm tired of beating my head up against a wall and tired of feeling defeated. I don't know what to do. I'[m sick over the whole thing. This child has learning issues, but he is reading well enough to progress into the "read to learn" stage. He will not do the SAPs at all, or maybe it is "cannot," I don't know anymore, maybe I'm too close to the problem. All I do know is that this can't go on. There's just too much turmoil in the house and I can't stand it!

Please help somehow, I don't really want to sell ToG but I don't know what else to do. The there's the whole, "What else do we try instead?" question to be sorted out. Whaaaaaaa!

Blessings,
Chris

How old is your second child?

quote:

Originally posted by deannatoby:
How old is your second child?

And how he does he do with other than TOG work?

And, would he do better with a tactile approach to the meat of TOG lessons (depends on his age)?

He's 13 and a half. Sorry, forgot to mention that. He's a dyslexic child with myriad issues that go with that, but also there are character flaws to work out. And then there's the whole "distraction / addiction" of RuneScape! No, I didn't want him to get involved with it, but that's water under the bridge now since he is involved. At the time I didn't communicate my concerns forcefully enough for them to be heeded by any of my men-folk. As far as his learning goes, he is reading well enough to move from fluency building into the "reading to learn" stage. I read aloud every day as well. One of his issues is that he doesn't remember things. One example: he'll do the same spelling list over and over in different ways until he memorizes it, but woe to the mother who messes up the order of the words! here's another issue: the math facts are finally in his head, most of the time, but he still does reversals when he changes fractions to LCM. If he talks it out, or I'm over his shoulder, the numbers end up in the right place, but if he does it on his own, forget it, then the answer is messed up because the numbers were transposed. Here's another thing. He can't remember anything that isn't of importance to him. He read Beowulf last week and we worked on the SAP together. Now in week 5 there's a repeat of the same SAP, nearly the same information, just presented a bit differently. I expected him to be able to remember the details yesterday considering we did the SAP on Friday, just a few days ago, but I was wrong. Not only did he accuse me of not teaching that stuff, but then when that didn't work he said "it's just too bad that I'm dumb!" Ugh! This is a bright kid! But man am I at the end of my rope. I know I teach these things, over and over again, but it just doesn't stick, no matter how many senses I use to engage him in the lesson. That's another thing, he hates doing what he calls busy-work and I call manipulatives. He thinks they are only for little kids. We use MUS now, again because of the learning issues, but he hates to "waste his time" with the manipulatives. Personally, I think he gives me such a fuss because it makes school time take longer and then that means it takes longer for him to get on the computer.

DH is finally in agreement with me that the RuneScape thing is an addiction for this boy and that we need to protect him from himself since he can't see the hold it possesses over him. Praise God!!!!! At least now I feel like we can make some progress. See, it's not necessarily ToG that's the problem per se, I think it's the child more than the curriculum. Like I said, I love everything about ToG, it's very similar to what I've been pulling together for my oldest son all these years (17 and graduating HS). Our homeschool has always been a read, think, discuss, and write kind of place. But now I have a student who has to expend so much energy in the work of reading that he is tired out before he even gets to the thinking part. He told me he doesn't like me asking him questions because he just doesn't know the answers. He doesn't know how to infer an answer if it's not explicitly stated in the material. I don't know how to fix this stuff. I've been working for years and years just to get him past his hump in reading that I never gave a thought to what kinds of issues we'd have to overcome in this stage of reading.

He's told me that he finds it hard to learn from more than one book at a time. That makes our ToG studies drag out far too long, in my opinion. I thought I could put him in Dialectic, but he can't manage the thinking or discussion questions at all. I moved him back to UG, but he finds the SAPs too ambiguous (I don't think so at all, but we're not talking about me). He tells me that he doesn't understand. I had him read Leif the Lucky and will try the SAP for that this week. I think that the LG things will be too easy, but maybe that's our problem, maybe I'm still not going at his proper pace. If I had to give you a grade level that he's working on, or, G-d forbid he ever had to go into the government school system, I think he'd be placed around a 5th grade level. But then again, he does show me reasoning from cause to effect at times, especially when he thinks I'm being unfair with him. Boy, can he debate and back up his arguments with cohesive pertinent facts then! I'm so frustrated over this. We went round and round about what to do for this boy. I love ToG, but I'm just not sure I made the right decision for this particular child.

Chris

It sounds like there may be some issues in terms of memory and in particular with long term memory. It might help you to begin with Mel Levine's A Mind at a Time . He'll explain to you the three types of memory and how they show up as problems. He may also (it's been a long time and I can't remember ) give you some hints on how to work on this stuff.

I think Marcia also offers a big hint by asking about more tactile approaches to the material. I would think very broadly about what other things he could do to make material more his. Since he likes RuneScape (which I have no idea about but assume is some kind of role playing game either online or in a game system), I'd be finding ways for him to take what he is learning and make or act out games with the material in some way. I would think Beowulf, for example, would be made to order for this. He could for instance, instead of doing his SAP, act out for you and dad what happened in Beowulf or history or whatever. If he has visual arts skills, he could make a comic book.

For math, this is more problematic as I am not creative enough to figure out how to act out math (although my engineer brother claimed he visualized his higher math). At the least he could make himself cheat sheets for various types of problems.

Is he mechanical at all? Does he want to figure out how things work? This could be capitalized on for making things that pertain to the work.(like make a working printing press for studying Gutenberg) same concept as the lower grammar stuff but on a higher level. Also have you heard of narration? the gist is instead of askig questions have him tell you what he learned. "son, after reading about Gutenberg tell me what you think of him...or the printing press...etc" for a period of time letting him just "download" what he knows to you might help...then he isn't dealing with stage fright trying to figure out what you want him to say. my son will build minitures of things out of legos and tell me how they work. He is not dyselexic though

Here's another part of my dilemma .... We read Leif the Lucky on Monday, today we did the SAP and everything went great. I proposed he do the "four alls" project, especially since he's bored now that RuneScape is off. He's not terribly interested. Instead he said he's putting his Yugioh cards together so he can sell them on ebay. Honestly, I'd rather see them burned, but again, I see them in a different light than the men-folk do, but I digress. My point here is that we backed up to LG assignments and books, with a 13 yo boy who is supposed to be starting high school next term!!! Now how on earth am I supposed to justify LG level work for this age kid?? Even if he spends just this year at LG building confidence and success, and then spends another year at the UG level, how will that translate into high school credits? I look at all those great Rhetoric level assignments and think, "Wow, this is great stuff! It would've been so much easier on me if I had known about this when the older one started high school. What a ton of time I would've saved." That student would have thrived in ToG. For him, it would've been a no-brainer. Ever since looking into this though, I've had concerns that it would be too much, too un-doable for this particular child, and that's why I'm feeling so defeated.

I can see that I have to lay the ground work for this boy to learn how to learn, if that makes any sense. My problem now is how do I reconcile this great curriculum with the pacing and level he needs to be successful?

Blessings and thanks for the ideas, and most especially, the prayers,
Chris

What if I tried splitting the work into two weeks, but instead of spreading it all out, focus instead on history one week and literature the following week? When I read the history to him, I could help him to capture his thoughts onto one of the graphic organizers so it may "stick" better. Then on Literature week, help him through answering the questions on the SAPs but also helping him, again by the use of an appropos organizer, to figure out the more subtle things going on in the stories. I've pretty much thrown in the towel on Apologia science for now. Instead I bought him one of Fabre's science story books from Yesterday's Classics which I'll read to him and have him narrate back to me or have him take dictation from. I have lots of experiment books around that will work with whatever we come across so he won't really miss anything by not doing Apologia this year. I intended for this year's science to be rather general in nature anyway. As for the math, well, we're still taking that slowly. When needed, he uses the HW pages in M-U-S and I have also been known to find the needed page in the Mammoth Math Blue Series and printed it out for him if we really need more time on something.

All in all, I think I feel a little better today, but I have to say that I really thought that once we had gotten to the place where he finally understood what I was talking about with the Orton-Gillingham program that he'd be able to soar! So not only am I a momma who was totally unwilling to admit that there is indeed a true thing called dyslexia, but I also never realized the magnitude of what this brain-issue entails.

Now, how do I actually come up with a four year plan for this boy that will actually WORK? For now, I don't really mind moving him back to the LG column, I have many of the books anyway, but I am concerned about high school. It's one thing to say that I'm in charge and the kid gets credit for what I say he gets credit for, but it's also not particularly fair to call elementary level work the equivalent of high school level work. I am fine with helping him to overcome or work with his particular set of giftings and limitations, but I want to make sure that what I grant credit for at the high school level can actually be considered high school work. I realize I have to lower my standards from the benchmarks that were put in place for the first child, but how do I know where to set the level for this boy? I don't want to set it too low, nor do I want to kill him by setting it too high. I can see that the credits list on the Loom is totally over his head. I don't know that he'd ever be able to accomplish all of that.

I'm not crazy about having him formally diagnosed either, especially living in Pennsylvania where he'd have to jump through so many more hoops homeschool-law-wise. But then again, if he does opt for a college degree, or the college experience, he'll need accomodations. Do you know if the diagnosis can wait until say junior or senior year of high school? I worry over the 8th grade test too. There are so many things on that which he will not be able to do. I guess it's moot because it's required this year and there are simply too many topics on it that he will not have gotten to by the time the test comes around.

Blessings,
Chris

Chris,

Have you looked at My Audio School yet? Molly Evert, the creator of the website, is a Tapestry user who has a dyslexic son. She created the website for him so that he could listen to books that were above his reading level.

Here is a link: My Audio School.

Molly has an article at the website entitled "Helping Dyslexics Help Themselves."

Blessings,

Reading your posts is like watching myself do homeschool! I have a thirteen year old son with severe learning disabilities including dyslexia! His memory is horrible. BUT, like your son, he's a good kid. He's smart and able to understand things at grade level, just not able to read them or remember all the details.

While I'm by no means an expert, here are some things that have worked for us... Instead of asking the questions the way they are listed, I use narration (like someone else mentioned). I ask him, "Tell me everything you can remember about Martin Luther." Then, I play off of his answers and eventually cover everything. This keeps him from thinking that there's some right answer out there somewhere that is escaping him. Those questions (that seem perfectly reasonable to us and even to our other children) sound like failure before these kids ever open their mouths.

The other positive aspect of narration is that he can't mess it up. As with your son, my son has a sibling who can function at or above grade level and he is constantly comparing himself. Anything we can give them to enjoy school and succeed at it is going to give them more motivation to keep going.

Also, I try not to split things up into UG or D in front of him. I just assign him things and we talk about them. Lets be honest, is this as academically rigorous as some schools? No. But are they learning and covering some things they wouldn't even have access to in regular schools because of their disability? Absolutely. IMHO, the best thing we can do as moms is take away the measuring stick and just enjoy learning with them. It will absolutely take longer and might drive us crazy at times, but school will be a joy and a discovery to them instead of something they'll never get right.

I've recently thought of doing a display board with my son where he can add something each week. Then, he doesn't need to pull an answer out of thin air, he can look at what he put on the board and talk about it.

I'm so sorry this is long and rambly. I've felt your particular brand of frustration and I'd be happy to chat with you off forum if you want. God has really impressed on me this perspective... what is more important? That he remember the dates of the renaissance or that he loves Jesus. I need to keep first things first. Love my son well and delight in him and point him to Jesus when things get tough.

Hope all this craziness helps.

Jen

Chris,

I am dyslexic, hsing dyslexic students (varying degrees).

On the college thing, he probably will need a diagnosis before college (probably before taking the SAT), but I personally don't see a need to do so right now if it is just going to cause you more trouble. I do think you need to make the allowances for him, just as they would do in college.

I would personally use as much D as I could, but only if I could get it on audio. Having him reading with the audio will also build fluency. In fact I passed every one of my history classes with an A by recording the lectures and listening to each one again 3 times. Those were the easy classes. If it is something you can't get on audio then I would go down to the LG level. Better he comprehend it at a lower level than it go over his head at a higher level.

I hear in your a desire to have him want to do it and enjoy it. That is a good desire, I think you need to be realistic. He probably won't. He still has to do history. You can make accommodations to make it easier on him. I wouldn't expect him to like it or want to do it. If you think an activity is critical to him getting it because he is a more hands on learner then I would lighten his reading load and assign the activity as a must do.

Some things also might take time. How long have you been doing the questions? If they are new then he probably needs time to get used to them. I started my 2nd dd answering some basic comprehension questions late last year and at first I would have to read the passage 3 times to get the right answer out of her. In time though she learned to listen better and could answer the questions the first time through. This child always requires more hand holding and time to adjust to anything new.

Personally I also really like the idea of using narration to work towards the questions. It gives them something to be successful at even if they can't answer the question. I also not be overly alarmed if to took him a year or longer to be able to deal with abstract questions. I would try to re frame the questions into more of a discussion for now. Some kids take longer to do thinking questions, and dyslexic children are quite often developmentally behind the crowd. They do catch up and do well later in life, but they do not hit the milestones at the same time as the majority.

Heather

I could write a bunch of stuff in response to your post, but I will stick to one piece of advice. Look into Diane Craft - she is a learning specialist in Colorado - she spoke at the homeschool convention in Virginia the past two years. She has things you can do at home that help tremendously. You can read some of her things on her website, you can order a dvd of her talks or you can go to Best-Christian-conferences.com and order the lectures from the convention. It will change your life with this child!!!

Just thought I'd update everyone since you've all been so helpful. We're moving along at pretty good pace these days, especially since I gave up the idea of 13 yos actually being a dialectic student at this point. We've been waffling between the UG and LG books and assignments and I've been helping him to wrap his mind around the more subtle ideas, helping him to learn to infer when something isn't directly stated by the author. I also joined MyAudioSchool and have had him listen to a few things on there. Forgetting about "where we should be" and simply "being where we are" has helped tremendously as well. Thanks so much for helping me put some perspective back into our lives.

Blessings,
Chris