My ds14 thinks the climax of Benedick/Beatrice storyline is when Benedick agrees to kill Claudio. I tend to agree, but the teacher's notes don't. How did you come to the answer in the teacher's notes?
Thanks,
Karen

Well, you know, there can be some legitimate dispute about where various phases of a storyline fall. I've never heard that there is always only one right interpretation. So, if you want, you and the Teacher's Notes can agree to disagree. :-)

That being said, I think that your son is leaving out a few factors in his estimation. I'd point out the following to him and see if it sways his thinking:

The best rule of thumb I know for this is the principle that the climax is the resolution of the main conflict. It is the point towards which the whole story has been building, and after the climax everything that happens is of lesser significance, because the main conflict has been resolved.

Now, I think your son would agree that the main conflict in this story is not between Benedick and Claudio. If it was, we'd probably see an actual fight and it would resolve with one of them winning. And even if we didn't have the fight, we'd still have to agree that the scene where Benedick challenges Claudio is more climactic than the scene where he promises Beatrice that he will do so. So, 1) I don't think we can say that Benedick/Claudio tension is the main conflict, and 2) even if it were, the climax would come later, either in a fight, or at least in the challenge scene rather than the promise scene.

Then there's the fact that the climax almost always comes right at the end of the story, because after you've resolved the main conflict, there isn't much left to do except cleanup. The suspense is over. However, in the promise scene, nothing is resolved and nothing is over, and we're nowhere near the end. I'd say we're still building towards something, and if the story ended right after that scene, the audience would say "Hey! Where's the rest of it?"

Pretty much everybody I've ever read or heard on the subject agrees that the main tension or conflict of the play is between Beatrice and Benedick. Their bickering and bantering certainly gets the most stage time, which is one way of measuring importance to the overall plot. The question of "will they, won't they" fall in love is also probably the main suspense of the story, which is another way of measuring plot importance. So, I'd say, the resolution of that conflict is their final reconciliation and marriage. Anything before that is unfinished because that conflict is unsettled. I think that Benedick agreeing to fight Claudio is a very significant moment in this conflict, because it indicates to her that he is willing to sacrifice even that friendship for her sake, and I can see why your son would choose it. However, I think there's something more towards which the promise is building: namely, their marriage.

So, I'd ask your son to apply the following questions: 1) "Does this scene solve the main conflict of the story?" (he may say that it does, because it proves to Beatrice that Benedick loves her; HOWEVER, remember that Benedick hasn't yet absolutely PROVED that he loves Beatrice by fighting Claudio---promising isn't the same as doing), 2) "Is there a more complete resolution of this conflict later on?" and 2) "If the story ended immediately after this scene, would you feel like you'd been left dangling, or would you be satisfied?" If the answer is "no," "there's a more complete resolution later" (i.e. marriage), and "dangling," then I'd say he needs to keep looking for a climax. If the answer is "yes," "no, there's no more complete resolution," and "satisfied," then I'd say he's found what he was looking for, though I would respectfully disagree with him, and I think he'd have a hard time finding a consensus of literary critics who would back him up.

I'd be interested to know whether he is persuaded by these arguments, or whether he has more points to offer in defense of his interpretation....?

Hope this helps!
c.j.somerville

Karen,

Your son has identified the moment that the writer of the introduction to my copy of this play in Penguin's Shakespeare line says is the climax.

The author of the commentary is R.A. Foakes who is Professor of English at the University of Kent. (I think this is him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_A._Foakes)

I don't disagree with CJ in regards to climaxes except that I have read in various critical sources that Shakespeare's climaxes occur much earlier than most writers. As in many other points, Shakespeare is not a rule follower.

Pat, that's a beautiful example of varied interpretation of plot. Thank you! I also dimly recall having read that about Shakespeare's climaxes, now that you mention it, and for sure he was an innovator who tried new and unusual things! I am personally still not persuaded that the present instance is an example of an early climax, for the reasons listed above, but I think that your observation is a strong point in favor of Karen's son's interpretation. Maybe I'll have changed my mind too by the end of this conversation!

Incidentally, I'd be interested to know what that professor defines as a "climax." In plot, as in so many other areas of literature (and life!), I find that a lot of what people say hangs on how they are defining their terms. Perhaps that professor thinks of climax differently than I have defined it above.

Or maybe he has another reason for placing the climax there, such as the idea that that is the scene where Benedick and Beatrice admit that they love each other, and that it, therefore, deserves to be called the resolution of their conflict. As I said, I think that marriage is a more complete resolution, but definitely "people of equal intelligence and good will can disagree" about this!

Karen, as I said, I'd be surprised if your son could find a consensus of literary critics who place the climax there. I'm not surprised that there is an least one, as Pat has demonstrated, because in my experience there is at least one scholar who will back every possible opinion, ESPECIALLY on Shakespeare---but maybe this professor is representative and there is actually a consensus on that interpretation of the plot!

Possibly your son might be interested in doing a paper on different interpretations of the plot? That would make a very interesting literary analysis paper! However, if he does decide to do something like that, I recommend that you keep an eye on the papers he reads. As I said, I find that there's at least one scholar for every possible view of Shakespeare, and some of them are pretty nasty. I'm sure you don't want your son to stumble across a paper claiming that Beatrice is a feminist or that Benedick is homosexual (believe me, such papers are out there---I've read them). However, with a little oversight, I think it would make a great project!

My son sees the conflict as between Benedick and Beatrice too and also there is the conflict of Benedick versus his firm belief in bachelorhood. The scene where Benedick confesses his love and agrees to kill Claudio is the climax of both of these conflicts in my son's estimation.

It is an excellent topic for a writing project, thanks for the idea.

I like your son. :-) I think it's amazing that a 14-year-old has penetrated so deeply and accurately into the meaning of the story!

Honestly, as we discuss this, I'm coming more and more to see the wisdom of the principle that there can be more than one equally legitimate interpretation. I base my interpretation on "when is the most complete resolution achieved?" but I agree that Benedick committing to challenge his dear friend is really a VERY strong proof of love, and therefore is AT LEAST an extremely important moment of resolution in the Benedick/Beatrice conflict.

I still think of marriage as more permanent and complete, especially with the "dangling" idea that I was mentioning earlier, but I'm definitely swayed! However, I might be more easily persuaded to fix the scene we are discussing as the turning point of the Benedick/Beatrice conflict, the point at which the plot turns towards what will be its final end (i.e. the marriage). Has your son considered that solution to the question? Or does he think that the storyline doesn't have a turning point?

quote:

Originally posted by cjsomerville:
Incidentally, I'd be interested to know what that professor defines as a "climax." In plot, as in so many other areas of literature (and life!), I find that a lot of what people say hangs on how they are defining their terms. Perhaps that professor thinks of climax differently than I have defined it above.

Or maybe he has another reason for placing the climax there, such as the idea that that is the scene where Benedick and Beatrice admit that they love each other, and that it, therefore, deserves to be called the resolution of their conflict.

Well, I'm going to do this from memory, I pulled the volume down this morning and glanced over the essay to confirm I remembered correctly, but I put it back. Since I have to more a lamp off a table and then climb up on the table, you'll have to rely on my memory.

This was an essay focused on the play so as I recall we did not see extensive definition of terms. So I don't think I could give you that.

I think Karen's ds has nailed the professor's reasoning pretty well. It is the moment of commitment and seriousness that comes with Beatrice's "Kill Benedict." The denouement is the wedding (gosh I hope I remember that term correctly).

I just started restudying Shakespeare so I can do one play a year with my 11 yo (and eventually my 8yo, but he is not ready). I'd be much better versed on the intricacies of Julius Caesar (some folk think the climax there is Act III, but the real question is who is the focal character of JC) than Much Ado.

What I do is to begin with the Penguin Shakespeare. I love their introductions and they include lots of references to other works. I also find articles on the Internet and I let works of criticism lead me to other works. For JC I even ended up ordering a small book from the 50s from the UK. It wasn't expensive, I just had to be patient for it to come. I combine the criticism with books written for teachers on specific plays (JC was not a popular play there).

I'm not sure every book lends itself to this sort of study. Shakespeare has centuries of work and people still argue over points. I get the sense that other works are less conflicted than Shakespeare's.

Thank you for sharing more about the professor's opinion! It looks like he's defining "climax" the way I have understood "turning point" to be defined. Maybe he is thinking of the five-part plot system (exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, denouement), whereas I'm thinking of the seven-part plot system (exposition, inciting moment, rising action, turning point, further complication, climax, denouement). If I didn't have a turning point to work with, I'd certainly be much more tempted to make that scene the climax!

I think you're right about Shakespeare studies being numerous and conflicted. I guess he's probably the single most argued-about author in English literature, which makes sense, of course, because he's also considered the greatest. Honestly though, when I was taking Shakespeare in college, I got quite sick of all the contradictory opinions and the impassioned Bardolatry. :-/ But I guess it was good too, because I learned to loosen up about my own opinions and just enjoy the literature without trying to make it mean so much.

I also learned during Shakespeare classes to be humble about multiple interpretations (and most of all my own!): I learned that as long as ideas are common-sensical and solidly grounded in the text, the author, and the time period (and not in scholars' own agendas, such as feminism or gay studies or political readings or Freudianism or new historicism), I could and should be happy to respect those ideas, even if they conflict with mine. Vive la difference!

Once I started to do that, I liked Shakespeare studies again (of course I never stopped liking the Bard himself). :-) So, that's why I'm happy to respect the opinion of the scholar you are citing, because he seems to be well-grounded in the text and is making a point that fits the play.

All that to say, I guess, that Shakespeare studies have taught me a lot. :-) And it's great to talk to someone else who is doing Shakespeare research and enjoying his plays! Isn't education fun?

If you like Penguin, you might want to look also into the Folger editions of the Shakespeare plays. I had never heard of them before last year, but they are published by the Folger Shakespeare Library, and I've been really impressed with the extensive notes that they have to make the plays more readable. I wish I'd had them when I was a teen! For myself I have the Riverside Shakespeare, which I bought because my college professors told me that it was the most "perfect" (i.e. meticulously researched and annotated) text... but to tell you the truth, in my heart I think I prefer the big illustrated editions with no scholarship to speak of, but good basic text and plenty of beautiful pictures!

CJ, thank you for taking the time to add so much to our discussion. I've already mentioned before how impressed I am with the job you have done with the literature portion of TOG, it truly is excellent, and being able to discuss it with you like this makes it even better. I was delighted to see that you graduated from PHC, it is on the top of our, as yet, very short list of colleges. You have obviously received an excellent education, although I'm sure mom and dad contributed as well

Karen

Thank you, truly, for that encouragement Karen. It means all the more to me because I've devoted these years to serving you ladies, and it blesses me beyond expression to know that you feel well served, even though I feel so inadequate and so NOT an expert on these things! Your trust makes me increasingly eager to be humble and careful in my work, for which I thank God.

I did have an excellent education in college, but I'll tell you a secret---I had an even better education in TOG. Really! PHC professors were WONDERFUL, but they just deepened and broadened what was already there. I truly feel that if I had never gone to college, I still would have rich education, a mind awake, a rounded soul, and an ability to tackle new areas of study as they come my way through life. I think that this knowledge helped me not to fret over grades in college or gorge myself on information (though I certainly had a feast!), but just to enjoy every minute of it.

Because of that, I remain aware of the great debt that I owe my parents for their patient, wise, enthusiastic, and balanced instruction in high school. They helped me to become a complete person before I ever went to college, and kept me from treating higher education as the be-all and end-all. I fear that many kids think that their education doesn't matter until they get to college, and I'm so glad I didn't have that mentality! I know I'm a far richer person for it. I still think of my parents as my best teachers, even if they didn't know as much information as my college professors. Information is just information: I'm grateful for it, but it was my parents who taught me how to love God and learn.

I think it's because of this that I have taken you ladies and your husbands as my personal class of heroes. And that's just fantastic for me, because really, how many people get to spend all their time serving their heroes? Especially when my heroes are gracious, flexible, humble, encouraging people? Anybody can see why I want to be like you ladies when I grow up. :-) In the meantime, thank you for making my job a joy!

c.j.somerville

Wanted to say that one reason I love Shakespeare was I went to a lot of plays as a teen. There is nothing that really gets at Shakespeare like seeing his work on stage (better always than movies).

quote:

Originally posted by cjsomerville:
If you like Penguin, you might want to look also into the Folger editions of the Shakespeare plays. I had never heard of them before last year, but they are published by the Folger Shakespeare Library, and I've been really impressed with the extensive notes that they have to make the plays more readable. I wish I'd had them when I was a teen! For myself I have the Riverside Shakespeare, which I bought because my college professors told me that it was the most "perfect" (i.e. meticulously researched and annotated) text... but to tell you the truth, in my heart I think I prefer the big illustrated editions with no scholarship to speak of, but good basic text and plenty of beautiful pictures!

I did buy a Folger edition for my study of JC last year. Partly because I hoped to do a mini co-op on the play and I knew I needed to buy a text that would be accessible to students. For the text itself it was great, even better than Penguin because the size is bigger.

For the essay at the beginning, Penguin was still better, but Penguin editions are hard to find and honestly if I was using the text to teach, I'd go with Folger's.

I also get teacher emails from the Folger library itself. They have an extensive library of short articles to help teachers teach Shakespeare. I wish I lived closer and could go there.

Thank you, ladies, for a very interesting discussion!

I just had to jump in now with a note for the TOG staff and for CJ in particular, prompted by CJ's comments on her TOG education.

We have recently decided that our 17 yo dd will not be attending college immediately after graduation and perhaps not ever. A friend just asked me if I would still have used TOG had we known this when she began hs. My answer was much the same as your comments!

("I truly feel that if I had never gone to college, I still would have rich education, a mind awake, a rounded soul, and an ability to tackle new areas of study as they come my way through life.)"

I can't thank all of you enough for all that you do/have done to make this wonderful resource available to us! It is such a blessing to have a truly God-centered curriculum that helps us to train a new generation of Kingdom-builders, with or without college.

I am using UG, D and R and know that all of my children are receiving an excellent education and each will be well prepared for his/her life's calling. Every week, we discuss worldview. Even my youngest can give a reasoned answer for his/her faith. It is easier for them to stand against the lies of the enemy and the culture, easier for them to own the faith as their own at a younger age. They knowknow why they believe what they believe; and that you don't have to check your brains at the church door!

Thank you, thank you!!
Wendy

(CJ, we began with Redesign Y1. I thought you'd like to know that when we started, there were so many tears at analyzing ancient Egyptian poetry! It was such a stretch from the literature studies we had previously done. I walked dd slowly through it all, using your excellent notes. Now, after 2 years of TOG, literature is her favorite part of the program!)