We've just started TOG and my UG son's literature for the week is "A Place In The Sun." I sat down and read it last night, and I am quite concerned. The story implies that the various egyptian "gods" actually have powers. The god of healing in particular. There is also the strong impression that there are spirits that some people can hear and some people cannot.

I appreciate the way that the story weaves so many facts about the Egyptian society into the plot, but the overall story is a concern.

Am I overreacting? How have you worked through similar concerns with a UG child? I could work through logical conclusions with him, but I thought this stage of the Trivium was all about the facts and the difficult conversations came in the "Logic" stage.

Thank you in advance for your feedback.

Regards,

Scott

Hi Scott,
Yes, you are right that this book does present the viewpoints of Egyptians. You'll find this type of thing again as other pagan cultures are encountered and sin rears its ugly head in similar ways.

At Lampstand Press, we seek to teach children about these other beliefs, how they differ from God's word, and how we can compassionately answer those who oppose our faith. Now of course, we're not likely to come across any ancient Egyptians, but the basic premise of being able to recognize and identify falsehoods, as well as to stand firm against them, is the goal in this regard.

To that end, we try to incorporate such things on an appropriate level. An upper grammar student should be able to recognize these falsehoods, although he probably won't be able to analyze them and make connections between these false gods and the ones mentioned in the Bible. However, this is a step in that direction.

When my boys were that age and we read about these other beliefs, we prayed for people today who believe in a similar manner. I believe that it helped my boys be sensitive to the lost condition of others' souls and be able to respond in a way that will ultimately bring glory to God.

Hope this brings some clarity for you. If not, please feel free to post again.

Blessings,

Scott,
My 10 year old son enjoyed the story very much. We spent a bit of time discussing the story and he easily understood the differences between our faith and the Egyptians Gods.
Tamra in CO

quote:

Originally posted by DanaCinTN:
At Lampstand Press, we seek to teach children about these other beliefs, how they differ from God's word, and how we can compassionately answer those who oppose our faith. Now of course, we're not likely to come across any ancient Egyptians, but the basic premise of being able to recognize and identify falsehoods, as well as to stand firm against them, is the goal in this regard... An upper grammar student should be able to recognize these falsehoods...

Dana and Tamra,

Thank you both for your comments. I guess I did not state my concerns as explicitly as I should have. I am in violent agreement with the premise you reference, Dana. Namely, to be able to identify contrary worldviews and answer them from a Christian perspective. This is one of the significant motivations for our decision to homeschool and specifically to use Tapestry of Grace. I teach apologetics to men, so such a goal is a passion of mine.

My son can easily recognize the differences between the Egyptian beliefs and Biblical precepts. He can articulate them. My concern was that this particular story does not simply teach or expose the child to the Egyptian worldview. Rather, it validates the Egyptian worldview. Senmut is "delivered" by the "spirits" that guide him. His father is healed, along with the Pharaoh's son, by Sekhmet, the goddess of healing. The ultimate triumph for Senmut is that he too will have his "place in the sun" and live for eternity with the Pharaoh Merneptah.

My concern is that we are allowing this book because of the historical elements, when we would not allow other books presenting non-biblical values in such a positive way. Certainly the controversy over Harry Potter is a good example. Disobedience, mischievous behavior, and witchcraft are all venerated in those stories. Harry becomes the hero through explicitly anti-biblical behaviors. If those books somehow taught us a lot about some ancient culture, would their negative elements be somehow acceptable?

Having said all this, I am a brand new homeschooler and this is our first child through the process. I may be greatly over-thinking the issue. I was looking for the wisdom of the veteran experience on this board.

Thank you for indulging such a long post. You all are an inspiration.

Regards,

Scott

Hi there,
No, I don't think negative elements are acceptable. What I personally find acceptable is teaching that "this is how people believed, and *they* found it acceptable." However, the good news is that God revealed Himself over and over again, and toppled these Egyptian idols. Maybe it would help you to see a broader picture by reading the Teacher's Notes (p. 39-40 in Redesigned) and the supplement (p. 45-46) in Week 3.

By reading books such as this, in your student's mind, you are creating the backdrop for students to understand more about the world in which Moses entered and through which God systematically overpowered these pagan idols.

That said, if you are concerned, please feel free to substitute assignments, or alter them in any way you see fit. Ultimately you and God know your child best and know what will reach his soul.

Incidentally...I don't want to start a Harry Potter discussion...but we've chosen not to introduce them into our home. And because we've chosen not to, I have absolutely no idea if these books represent the culture and present learning tools. Just like with A Place in the Sun, I think that every parent should take into account what God wants for the child and family and follow that without reserve.

Blessings,

I found this post to be very interesting and was wondering if any others had some ideas on how to better formulate our family's ability to make decisions on what things we will allow in.
I have a teen now and I have repeatedly come up against why can't I read that and have countered often between these two Dana and Scott's perspectives.
As a christian mom do you have any books, sermons, etc. that you've found particularly helpful in seeking scriptural widsom in this area?

I've been reading a Place in the Sun with my 9yo dd and almost 8yo ds (they are advanced readers so we are doing UG). They know that a) the story is a work of fiction and b)the gods are not real gods....
They know that sometimes people believe in false gods and they understand that they worship the one True God.
But if you as a parent are uncomfortable with the book, then skip it. Your child can always read literature that is unrelated or maybe look at the LG book instead???

Hi "mom"!

On Christian radio a few years back, Dr. James Dobson told the story of a boy who wanted to go see a certain movie. The father objected, citing a less-than Godly scene in the movie. The child then countered with all the positives in the movie... the father held his ground. Later, the child came home to find that his father had made his favorite brownies for dessert! The dad told him to wait a minute before indulging in them. He explained that these brownies were made from choice sugar, the best Belguim milk chocolate, etc. as he goes down the list of fine ingredients. The child is salivating with great anticipation, when the father hands him the plate. Then the dad tells the son that one other ingredient is in the brownie: a tiny pinch of dog poo. The point was, in this context, why go see the movie? Even though it had all these excellent points, one tiny little bit of poo really does spoil the rest.

Now, I choose to apply the above analogy to movie watching, entertainment, etc. As far as TOG goes (education and spiritual upbringing for that matter), I agree that our children MUST study these cultures, these other religions. They must be prepared for when they leave our safe nest and become co-workers or employees of these other religions. If we as parents are doing our job of always pointing to the one True God, then I believe there is nothing to fear. It's when our eyes slip away from HIM that Satan will use any opportunity he can to worm his way into our children's lives.

Renee said it great, if you're uncomfortable, skip it. That's one of the many pros of homeschooling: mainting control over what is taught. Control that is given to you by you Lord, whom we should seek for counsel regarding these things.

Blessings to you,
Karyn

quote:

Originally posted by Scott Ross:
[My concern was that this particular story does not simply teach or expose the child to the Egyptian worldview. Rather, it validates the Egyptian worldview. Senmut is "delivered" by the "spirits" that guide him. His father is healed, along with the Pharaoh's son, by Sekhmet, the goddess of healing. The ultimate triumph for Senmut is that he too will have his "place in the sun" and live for eternity with the Pharaoh Merneptah.

Scott one more thought on this. I believe that spirits do exists and on occasion do things "for" people. That doesn't mean that as Christians we are to believe in them. As a wonderful illustration of how spirits do still rule and control people's lives I can suggest a book for both you and your children called And the Word Came with Power. In it you will find vivid stories about a people enslaved to spirits. You will also read of their release through the coming of the Word to them.

I don't know if this will help you sort these issues out or not. I only offer it as something that has helped me.

Dear Scott, I appreciated your post as we were just starting this week and you got me thinking!

So, here is what I have come to. I am challenging the children: if you saw these things in real life would it challenge your faith in Jesus Christ and the truth of His Word?

I am bringing them to Moses and Aaron before Pharoah. They performed miracles and then the sorcerers of Pharoah also did the same things. In Ex. 7:10-11 it says: "So Moses and Aaron went to Pharoah and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharoah and his officials, and it became a snake. Pharoah then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts."
Did this rock the faith of Moses and Aaron?

When I mentioned this to my 10 year old son today, he added, "yes and remember what Satan was able to do to Job?"

I agree that exposing our children to these things is very hard and a bit frightening. I have had my young children ask me, "How do we know WE are right and the other religions are wrong?" This was very scary for me to have them question their/our faith. But I realized that I asked these questions but at a much older age when I was no longer under the authority of my parents and no longer going to them with my questions.

Now I treat those questions seriously and with much prayer and we dig in together and I show them why I believe is Jesus and open the evidence to them. So in the end, I believe it a great blessing to be able to work them through these types of hard questions and doubts when I still have them under the roof with us 24/7 and not later when they are living elsewhere.

I do hope this helps.
Sincerely, Karen T.

We just finished up A Place in the Sun. I had my son read it aloud to my DD and I. I too noticed the things that you pointed out and so did my children. This brought about great conversations with them. We talked about how behind every idol is a demon, and how they may have really been deceived into thinking these idols were moving, breathing, and healing. We also had a chance to talk about how you can be devout...but wrong. My son, brought up the fact that even if there was healing, it was only because the one true God chose to grant it. He even said that HE could do this, for whatever reason He wanted, even to further harden their hearts into believing the lie...my son said "He is God and He can do whatever He wants!"

I totally agree that our children need to study and learn these things...but only under the watchful eye of loving parents. If I had just given my son this book, had him read it, and just asked a few questions...I don't know if I would have been comfortable with that. However, reading with him, and taking note of all the things that caught my attention, then discussing them with him, worked out well for us.

I have had the same struggles, as this is our first year with TOG, and none of us are used to this yet. I go back and forth, almost daily, on what to read. I also have a D, and I was concerned about three weeks of Egyptian mythology. Again I think we will be OK, if I take the time to have deep dicussions with him. I may continue this with both my UG and D students, until they get a feel for where the teaching is coming from, and the points to grasp from it. I have a feeling this will take up a lot more of my time, but I know it will be worth it in the long run.
You are not alone, and I personally think it is good to question and seek the Lord on this issue. He will lead you to what will be best for your children, as He know them better than anyone. I pray He continues to bless you and your children, as you seek to point them to Him.
Blessings
Melissa

I bought A Place in the Sun, read it, and have been undecided. I agree it would be one I would need to read WITH my UG 9 year old ds, so we can discuss the beliefs along the way. I would have done that, but knew my 6 year old LG would listen, and I don't think she's ready for that.

This is what I ended up doing. I found a book Egyptian Diary: The Journal of Nakht by Richard Platt. It is UG reading level, but with some pictures. It mentions the gods, but on a periphery level and not as the focus of the story. The story is a journal of a boy in Egypt who sees a tomb being raided. I feel very comfortable just handing it to my UG ds, and the questions for A Place in the Sun work very well! The SAP compares things then and now, so I just substituted THIS boy for the one in the other book. I hope this helps someone!

AnnM in Texas

quote:

Egyptian Diary: The Journal of Nakht by Richard Platt

Thank you for this recommendation. I have looked at this book and decided to use it instead of Place in the Sun. I am renting Place in the Sun to read/glance through it but found the diary book new on Amazon for 5 plus change shipped! I have a very impressionable son and feel that this might work better for him.

CK in NM

I'm glad the recommendation helped. The Egyptian Diary: Journal of Nakht has been one of my kid's favorite books this year.

AnnM in Texas

At the very beginning of the book, the cobra attacked and ate a mouse. It used up its venom supply on the mouse. That means Senmut's father wasn't as severely poisoned as he might have been and was able to recover.

The book characters give credit to the goddess of healing for the father's recovery, but there's a logical explanation behind it.